Avatar? My Arse!

A while ago, a friend was flirting with the idea of doing an Avatar course (thankfully, she ended up giving it a miss).

I’ve done Landmark Education’s Forum (worthwhile, but won’t comment further here, as this will be the subject of another post). I’ve also read a shitload of self-development stuff over the years (all the usual suspects), attended a Christopher Howard weekend seminar, even read a friend’s copy of The Secret (herk) – hmm…there’s another post. Before I dig myself in any deeper, my point is that I’m no stranger to this stuff and am generally cynical, but not necessarily dismissive of all of it.

I’d never heard of Avatar. Naturally, I hit Google with a vengeance. Here’s what I turned up.

Avatar is an offshoot of Scientology, and probably the silliest cult I’ve come across – wait, I’m forgetting the Little Pebble…but I digress.

There is the usual mystical genesis that is common to all these quasi-religious con jobs. The founder, Harry Palmer, claims to have had a revelation in a float-tank.

For the uninitiated, a float tank is basically a coffin with warm salt water for you to float in. When the lid is closed you’re in total darkness. The idea is to empty your mind of the noise of thinking by removing all sensory distractions. I’ve done a few floats. Relaxing – interesting even, the first couple of times – but it’s something you, erm, get over.

Anyway, our Harry claims it was revealed to him while in this float tank state of sensory deprivation that we all came from a distant planet, “Estro”, and that humans are afflicted with inner “entities” from other worlds that are the cause of all our problems. His Avatar courses eventually “exorcise” these alien Entities and hey presto – we’re happy and fulfilled, and able to live full, powerful lives.

Basically, this nut saw an opportunity to make big bucks by re-modelling Scientology (he was a director of a Scientology centre for 15 years). He presented it in a more low-key mode, added a bit of Hindu here, a bit of ancient Chinese wisdom there, with a heaped cup of New Age pop-psychology and more than a pinch of NLP (neuro-linguistic programming).

In a similar manner to the now completely discredited cult, the Sanyassins (or Orange People, or Rajneeshis), he mixed up a light brew of easy philosophy combined with promises of quick fixes and dreams-come-true especially designed for affluent Westerners looking to satisfy material and spiritual yearnings without putting in a lot of real work or time on themselves – and prepared to pay a hefty upfront price for the privilege.

Palmer’s beliefs-create-your-world idea is just recycled NLP theory, which in itself is very hypey and California flavoured but at least can be beneficial in my experience, and unlike Avatar, is not a quasi-religious cult that preaches that we are inhabited by tiny aliens that can only be exorcised by doing all the Avatar courses (and making the Avatar Masters and Palmer rich in the process).

So, from my readings, Avatar is a Mickey Mouse version of Scientology – and that’s some indictment! And Harry Palmer is a fruitcake (a rich one) and as false prophets go, about as avaricious and tacky as they come. Still, it seems there are plenty of gullible souls lining up at Avatar Centres around the world with their spiritual begging bowls pleading, “Please sir, may I have some more.”

They might do well to check out the following sites:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_Course (Don’t miss the “Avatar Critics” section.)

Have a flake-free weekend, folks.

387 thoughts on “Avatar? My Arse!”

  1. Hey Rolan,

    This is a witty synopsis. One thing you may want to warn people about is the medical quackery of this cult. Your fellow Aussies Nura (Pameo) Hoffman and Michael Bray of Sydney were advertising cancer and AIDS reemissions not so long ago. They got that from Harry’s original 1991 Wizard course lecture where he attributed those and presumably all deadly diseases to pesky possessive entities from the astral plane.

    You might also want to take a look at the usenet newsgroup, alt.clearing.avatar. It’s easy to access through Google groups.

  2. Hi Eldon and thanks for this information.

    Gullible people parting with their money to “transform” or “self-develop” through crank cults like Avatar is the stuff of fun-poking and satire, but the outrageous claims about cancer and AIDS cures you refer to are, of course, morally – and one would hope, legally – reprehensible.

  3. Rolan –

    Beware. Don’t be surprised if you get spammed by “Inside Avatar” or “SE Comm” with a typical cult retort. The usual tactic is to send them to a “Situation Report” about a libel case they spent a fortune to win against their loudest critic.

    However, this dead agent tactic (Scientology term) shows their real cult pathos as epressed in an internal breifing, which can be found at https://www.avatarepc.com/html/epc45.html#guardian

    Also, please note the term “Guardian” – a reference to the former criminal office of Scientology responsible for spying on and incriminating critics by any means necessary.

    But connecting the dots aside, these bizarrely out-of-place internal and external PR writings of such a “company” speak for themselves. If you are reasonably rational and read enough of Palmer’s own writings BEFORE being exposed to the intentionally psychologically manipulative courses, you will likely make the sane choice and stay away.

    I’m glad you posted your common sense, reasonably objective objective perspective. As you can see, an education of the facts will help prevent anyone from becoming another articifially created “success story” for Palmer’s bank card.

  4. Thanks for the warning, Paul – says a lot about this mob of cranks that they respond to criticism thus. Typical ‘dysfunctional’ mindset operating here.

    Interesting link. I think another post is in order soon. The info you and Eldon have pointed to is worth some comment.


  5. I am not a avatar or know nothing about them. I woulod like to know how you can read some websites and make a informed decision about this group or its leader. I have read alot of books as well about the spiritual realm. I think you are trying to handle some personal issues and are attacking others who seem to be trying to do something about theirs. Hope you find your way…

  6. Ta for your potted psychoanalysis, The Curious, and you’re right – I am “trying to handle some personal issues”. These being, firstly, how anyone with a frontal lobe can possibly give any cred to a bloke who claims to have had a float tank revelation that all the ills of humankind are due to infestation by little meanies from the planet Estro. Another issue I have is with the same person getting rich off presenting his nonsense to gullible and desperate people seeking an antidote to the spiritual paucity of the affluent world.

    Do excuse my cynicism and scepticism. These are bi-products of a tendency to apply just a modicum of logic to the utterances of the charlatans and false prophets of this ol’ world. Wouldn’t dream of imposing my standards on you, though. Please do go on believing in whatever you choose. Watch your wallet, though – there is often a price to pay for such, erm, ‘openness’. Unfortunately, the greatest price is not measurable in accountant terms, though.

  7. Wow, I just came across this website and read your posts. I thought you may like to be open to a perspective of someone who has actually done all of the Avatar courses, as you seem to have some real charges around it. I admit, I was as skeptical as ever when I did the Avatar course (mainly it was all my husbands fears about what he’d read on the internet about Avatar and was pushing them onto me) but thank goodness I pushed through and experienced the tools for myself, as I can honestly say it’s been the most rewarding, life changing experience ever for me (and for my husband who hasn’t even done the course). It’s done wonders for my marriage, work, finances and my families relationship. I’d class myself as an intelligent, popular, well-to-do and respected person in the community who has a great job helping people in hospital, and I by no means think that I have become some part of a crazy group. The crew that do Avatar are the most remarkable caring, selfless, supportive group of people that I have ever come across, with a mission to actually better themselves in order to help society and the world we live in. What sort of a person would criticize people who are working towards promoting more peace within this world? Imagine living in a world where you don’t hold judgments on anyone around you, you hold compassion in your space for your greatest enemy, you live every step with pure courage and you strive to hold a level of integrity that is near pure. That’s what becomes of Avatars and I can say that, as I have experienced it for myself. And in regards to money, I never thought I had any money when I first started – I actually used a small amount of money that I was left in my grandma’s will to pay for my course. And you know what, the amount of money that I have generated in the 12 months since doing my course has astounded me. Through use of the Avatar tools, I created a much more successful work environment with more money, and had more energy to get out and do other work as well. My husband and I even went on an overseas trip together, which we’d only ever dreamed of doing. It sounds as though you may have money issues yourself – I’m guessing you allow it to really put limits on your life? Avatar’s not for kookies, it’s actually for people who are courageous enough to start to take personal responsibility and decide to do things differently in their lives that they’re not happy with. It’s about getting real, getting totally honest in every aspect of your life and learning how to truly love yourself and others. And if you want to meet a man who exudes pure love and wisdom, meet Harry Palmer in the flesh. Sure he may have been involved with Scientology – so? What is Scientology anyway? All I know about it is that Tom Cruise is into it and Nicole didn’t dig it. Even if Harry was involved in it, he doesn’t seem to have brought any negatives from Scientology into the Avatar materials, because I certainly haven’t experienced any of them. Maybe that was part of his journey to grow and evolve? Anyway, I just wanted to give a few different perspectives to open you up a little to different possibilities. Afterall, life is full of them 🙂

  8. Firstly, I don’t trust a person who doesn’t understand or practise paragraphing.

    Secondly, I find your tone patronising.

    Thirdly, you sound like some moist new convert full of zeal and evangelistic fervour – give it a few months and come back. I’ve been where you’re at (though my cult of choice was not Avatar). It’s a delusional state, and if you’re sane, temporary.

    Fourthly, whatever you claim, I find it a little diffiCULT to move past Harry’s Estro stuff, and the entities shit. C’mon – how can you possibly abide that crap? Gimme a fuckn break! Hansel and Gretel make more sense than that!

    Actually, maybe another fairy story is more relevant here…Little Red Riding Hood. Are you sure you’re not Harry, Grandma?

  9. just letting you know, i am also someone that have done the first 3 courses of avatar and i agree with everything “a different perspective” has said.

    dont know about the alien thing you are going on about, i havnt seen any of that, i just thought if was a personal development course that just add to your life and helps you not to overreact to everything you read, see and here.

    how funny i can even write in paragraphs since that seemed to be one of the issues you had.

    By the way its been a year since ive done the course and i dont feel it brain washed it just added to my life experiences, there are lots of ways you can grow spiritually and mentally eg church, avatar, nlp etc its good to keep an open mind and the only way you can determine if something works is by experience not by reading about it.

  10. Good for you, ebz.

    Personally, though, I can’t get past the aliens shit – and I didn’t make it up! Do a bit of research – I’ve even provided links for you.

    I like to know a little about the background of courses I do, and the people who run them. You don’t, it seems. Fair enough, but I call that naive.

    You might have mastered paragraphs, but might I point out you need a course in apostrophe use and spelling (do you here me?). Just a joke from a grammar pedant.

    As for your comment “the only way you can determine if something works is by experience not by reading about it” – well, sorry, but I don’t accept that that’s a generalisation that necessarily holds true all the time.

    I can read about NLP and psychotherapy, for example, and gain some insight into the methodologies and whether they are likely to suit and interest me in practice.

    I can also read about some money-hungry ex-Scientoligist who saw a way to exploit the gullible by dreaming up some bullshit about entities from the planet Estro fucking up the human world.

    That’s where I tune out. There are plenty of other self-development courses around, some of which I’ve done. I’ll choose from those, if I decide I need more “developing”, rather than line the pockets of good ol’ Harry’s wizard costume. But you go ahead, by all means.

  11. wow !
    I cant believe that you feel so strongly
    about something that you claim should mean so little to everyone
    ps please excuse my paragraphing etc
    as i am aware this offends you as much as people having the right to do what ever they want

  12. Erm, que? “Something you claim should mean so little to everyone”? WTF you talking ’bout, mon?

    Where did I say I am offended by people having the right to do whatever they want? Be free, dude. I ain’t stopping you!

    As for paragraphing, grammar etc…you need to learn to chill a little. Some remarks are flippant, others are meant to be taken seriously. Most half-intelligent, basically literate people can detect the difference. Some can’t, though, apparently. Hey – are THESE the folk who are drawn to Avatar courses, mayhap? Now that figures!

    Give my regards to Estro.

  13. Erm, Que? you too?
    You didnt say It should mean so little too eveyone and that people shouldnt be free to do what they want(I am sorry for saying you did).
    I was trying to give my view point on why I cant understand why you would need to create such a large opinion on something that you believe to be a fairy story.
    Ive never met Estro? or been there but Im sure if they (Estroines?) come to Earth to visit Harry They’d probably come to visit you aswell and you should do Avatar before they do because there going to kick your ass for being so mouthy to there convert.

    Why would you think Im “half-intelligent”?, my I.Q. is 142 and I am involved with mensa as a mentor.

    Give my reguards to whom ever is important in your life.(I am sure that list would be limited as you spend so much of your time knocking the things that you see are wrong in your life that the important people have left you playing on your computer while they experience love, compasion, and the feeling of having others around them.)he he he he Id like to keep chatting and having fun getting you reved up but ive gotta go work hehehe : } he he he
    If i was any more chilled my feet would drop off(I was taught how to chill by Avatar, Yes)he he
    I am sure Harry appreciates your free advertising of his product he he he

  14. hahaha – oh, you funny little chappie. Takes a bit more than you’re capable of to get me “revved up” I’m afraid.

    Tell ya what.. if your IQ is 142 and you’re a Mensa mentor, I’m under cover from the planet Estro and you’ve busted my true purpose – to provide Harry with some free publicity!

    Not sure he’d be all that enthused with the demo you’ve provided of the intellectual quality of Avatar devotees, though!

  15. I have just come across this site and welcome the opportunity to express my experience of avatar/masters/wizards courses..I did the initial course because Iwas given the understanding avatar would give me the answers I was searching for..well it didn’t, but it did help me in looking at my life from a different perspective one I had been slowly gaining an awareness of..avatar provided a crash course in this..my experiences throughout the courses were quite unpredictable.. and there was never anyone to help me deal with what was going on..because they didn’t know how to really deal with it except to say ‘ it was my experience according to my beliefs’.. I felt this to be a cop out statement at the time..but had they given me their opinion it may have altered my own understanding of what was happening…
    I now understanding that there can be a very gentle way of assisting someone through an experience when certain mind techniques have been applied that helps the student to fully experience what is going on and also help them remain grounded ..
    people become addicted to experiencing altered states without being drug induced, but unless handled correctly they can also be self destructive…I would like to see the organisaton show a greater recognition of this and provide the support it should to its students..

    the overall ethos really is about getting as many members on board as possible…primary…in order to create an E.P.C.
    like any growing organisation it will break down in integrity and people get chewed up and spat out along the way…people are human after all and human nature is what it is…
    For some of the masters avatar provides a monster ego trip.. that can also be quite addictive .. for some it offers some kind of validation for who they are…AND for some they will truly believe in their intention to create an E.P.C., the modality of the avatar course is right for them because their intention is pure they will help to assist their student gain an amazing awareness of themselves..and have the desired affect on mass consciousness..

    for myself even though I never got the answers I went in search of I gained a greater awareness about my own intuitive abilities that I did not trust..because of all the unusual experiences I continued to have on course I have had to search deep within myself to find my answers..which is where we will learn our truth..so no regrets ..
    I have been exposed to probably the worst kind of mind manipulation that is here at the moment…I sensed this from the moment I walked into their preview..but because I doubted my own ability in my own intuitive senses..I pushed through my so=called resistances..I must admit when I used to come across the word avatar I had a nice feeling about what it represented to me but now I tend to cringe inside a little…

    Avatar is not for everyone…if you get drawn to do the course you will definitely learn a great deal about yourself should you choose to..it is totally experiential…again it is not for everyone..

    oh and I never heard anything about Estros’ or alien entities, being spoken of during the course from Harry but you can’t stop people from placing interpretations on what is going on for them or others and wizards..well.. the energy in that room..you better be ready because anything goes…interesting the different perspectives people have…

    so overall for myself it was a positive outcome but if I had to inspire my son or daughter sister or friend to go on a course…I’d be right there by their side just so they wouldn’t get swept away..

    I think avatar should be more upfront about what goes on on a course and more explanations offered about how the excercises actually work..I feel there is a lack of integrity on this.. but this has been only my observation after 18months from having completed wizards..

  16. Hi Mac 08.

    Appreciate your post. It’s interesting to hear from someone who has has some first-hand experience of the Avatar courses, and is not writing from a defensive vantage point. The balance you demonstrate in your post is refreshing indeed.


  17. Rolan, rolan, rolan,
    how easliy you give in to these people that write better than you (I know I dont and thats why you attacked my intellingence, maybe thats why you think i defended myself)any hoo,
    its a pitty you dont have enough free attention to make the changes to the things in your life that matter, and you focus on what others are doing .
    I know a course that can help you with this.
    I suggest you find out what is really important in your life and write about that, with your skills you may end up with a best seller.
    IE Most important thing in your life would be YOU : )
    All the best.

  18. Simply a matter of credit where it’s due, T.

    But thanks for your sage advice – must be that 142 IQ kickin’ in. Now get back to that Mensa mentoring, you funny little chappie, you.

  19. I have been involved with Avatar since 1995 and have assisted hundreds of people to realize their goals and dreams, overcome personal obstacles, to live more positively and be more self determined.

    Here is my perspective on Avatar. I hope you take the opportunity to inspect it for yourself.

    The Avatar course teaches a set of mental exercises that enable you to assume control over your own thinking, feeling and actions.

    Avatar gives you the means to deliberately shape your life the way you want. It is your own personal exploration. There is no dogma and no belief system attached
    You can find someone to teach you the Avatar Course almost anywhere in the world.

    The Avatar course attracts people from many countries, walks of life and religious backgrounds. It is not unusual to have Buddhist monks, nuns and Christian ministers working together, the material is highly spiritual and totally non-religious.

    The goal of Avatar is a person who as recovered control of his or her will; is a powerful creator who is personally responsible for his or her own life—no excuses, no grudges.

    Thats it. So sorry Rolan, no aliens, or brainwashing, just you exploring how what you believe creates what you experience, and that you can be in the drivers seat of where you want YOUR life to go.

  20. Hello Stewart. Your claims about Avatar sound like any number of similar claims about any number of self-development courses.

    Fine. Sensibly, you keep under wraps from your course attendees your founder Harry Palmer’s writings on “Estro” and all the nasty little entities (Estrians?) who have infiltrated Earth and caused all the mischief that afflicts us and makes us the fucked-up beings we are.

    The fact remains, your Mr Palmer founded Avatar on his float tank revelations…or are you denying his writings are his writings?

    I didn’t make them up, or the Estro nonsense! The evidence is all over the net for anyone who wishes to google for it. Anyone curious could start with Paul S. Riddick’s “Guardian” link – see the third comment in this thread – or the ones I’ve included in my post.

    And what of the cancer cure scam mentioned by Eldon Braun (first Comment in this thread)? Would you care to respond to that?

    Seems to me deceitful to hide from your course attendees the truth about Harry and his musings – or are the Avatar courses somehow floating free of their founder’s input these days?

  21. Hi Rolan, I’ll do my best to answer your queries.

    Unfortunately, and I’m sure you are probably aware after examining other modalites, our judments and assumptions about things will have a consequence on what we see as true.

    Being cynical is not the same as being skeptical. Healthy skepticism is welcomed, in fact many different viewpoints are welcomed as they help everyone to develop and grow. Bias and personal agenda, however, can easily influence what we examine and gain conclusions from. By becoming locked into only one viewpoint limits our ability to honestly examine things or even be truly skeptical. How much does your cynicism dictate how you respond to differring points of view?

    I totally agree there is a lot on the internet isn’t there, but how easily do you claim one thing to be true and the other to be a lie? Who or what do you believe?…and why? A simple example is noticing how you respond to the following statement. “I tell you now the information you have gained off the internet regarding Estro..entities infiltrating Earth, Harry founding Avatar on the float tank revelations, the cancer cure etc etc are not accurate, some even completely false and others taken waaaaay out of context.”

    The Avatar course is about exploring your beliefs, the beliefs of others and looking at things from multiple perspectives. Truth, I believe, has more to do with what you choose than anything else. You can choose to make something true or false. Does it mean it is? How much of your own judgments and opinions are influencing your “truths”?

    In Harry’s book he talks alot about the float tank, in some of his talks he recounts his experiences in it. In both he also talks a lot about many other subjects. None of these are secret or hidden. Does he ever say he founded the Avatar course on his float tank revelations? Yes. Absolutely, we all know that. Does he say he created the course entirely from them, no he doesn’t. He mentions at many different times other aspects that brought the pieces of the Avatar training together. (It’s all about context really when gathering info from the net…or any source for that matter…Are you getting the whole picture…has it been edited or exerted or quoted from a larger article then copied and referrred to so much the quote creates a life of it’s own.)

    The float tank, like meditation, is but one tool to gain insight into how the mind operates. If your experience in one was hum drum, should it discount it’s effectiveness, nor that of meditation and other mind calming techniques? Like meditation, and other practices, your intention and quality of your mind when entering will determine what you get out of it.

    The Avatar course is about accepting other viewpoints. Sometimes we can gain much understanding by even exploring those viewpoints. It doesn’t mean we have to subscribe to them.

    The workability of the materials are independent of what anyone thinks. The success of the materials to bring a person to operate more deliberately in their life is second to none compared ot other practices or courses.

    One thing I find it absolutely fascinating, is that the biggest opponent to Avatar, Eldon, copied the materials and designed a course to sell to students himself. What’s fascinating is, he actually believed in the successful workability of the Avatar techniques. His grudge with Harry seems to dominate his postings (and unfortunately his consciousness as well) more than anything. I am yet to hear him talk about this. Maybe you could ask him about that.

    In closing, for me, regarding anything found on the web, the crux of the matter is… Look it up for yourself, try it on, experience it and draw your own conclusions. There are over 100,000 successful Avatar graduates. As we speak there are courses happeining all around the world. Any one course could have up to 300 students on it. Each student recieves as much support as they wish. If they want one-on-one, they get it. The only thing they won’t get is their answers given to them by someone else. If you are a true explorer, this is the place for you. It is only through first hand experience do you discover real truth. Call it personal truth actually, because every single person has a different experience of truth.

    On the course you explore your own unique perspective on how your life works…or doesn’t work. The best news you get is the discovery of how to easily change things to make your life exactly the way you want it. Noone elses beliefs to adopt. No religeous rituals to worship. Just simple practical driving skills for your consciousness. How you drive and which way you drive is totally up to you. Thats what makes Avatar different.

    So Rolan, if you are up for it, I’m up for taking you through the materials. Get some first hand experience and insights that will really fill up a blogg. You’ve read a lot about Avatar, how about a real taste.
    What’s there to lose?

  22. Stewart

    Look, I believe you are in earnest. I believe YOU believe the Avatar courses are truly different and offer all the benfits you claim. But you’re a Wizard Master (or whatever…ie: you assist in running the courses). So you have much personally – and maybe financially – invested in defending and validating Avatar. That detracts from your credibility for me. You’re an insider, and therefore cannot claim to be truly objective. Argue with this point if you like, but I’ve been around a while. I’ve done some of these courses – Landmark I completed to an advanced stage. And I’ve seen firsthand the grip these courses get on their devotees. It’s inevitable. And you CANNOT be at once objective AND a devotee emotionally tied to a system of thinking.

    You’ve deflected the issues that are at the heart of my post and comments with the good ol’ tried and true politician’s “out of context” tactic – although you have avoided actually using that phrase. I stand by my point that Harry’s writings (Estro etc) are simply too silly to get past for me. Sorry, but I can’t support any course that has that sort of sci-fi premise as its jump-off point.

    I notice you didn’t comment on the cancer scam claim. Why not?

    You make claims about Eldon that I was not aware of until now. I can’t comment, since I am lacking sufficient information to form an opinion.

    Re your comment: “On the course you explore your own unique perspective on how your life works…or doesn’t work. The best news you get is the discovery of how to easily change things to make your life exactly the way you want it. Noone elses beliefs to adopt. No religeous rituals to worship. Just simple practical driving skills for your consciousness. How you drive and which way you drive is totally up to you. Thats what makes Avatar different.”

    Frankly, that sort of claim is not ‘different’ at all. Landmark makes virtually identical claims. So does every NLP-based course guru I know of. You’ll have to do better than that to stand out from the ‘transformation’ and self-development mob.

    I’m well aware that I will be perceived by you as stuck in my own beliefs, not open to exploring new realms of possibility etc. That may or may not be true. The thing is, having already done plenty of self-development work, ranging from Landmark to NLP programs to psychoanalysis, and having read many ‘self-development’ texts, I see common themes running throughout all of them, including Avatar, and I have yet to find one that really lives up to its claims.

    My conclusion is that most of these courses and systems of thinking/perceiving have something positive to offer. In many cases, the positive outcomes can be powerful – even profound. The potency depletes in time ,though, and the only way to recharge is to return to the mothership, so to speak.

    Fine, at various times of your life. But I do not want to remain permanently hostage to that sort of relationship. It has its time and place. Mine is not now.

    Thanks anyway.

  23. I guess Rolan, it is like i said about opinion and judgements. They can be the hardest things to overcome.

    I hope you look into Eldon with as much enthusiasm as you looked into Avatar. I am a bit surprised you hadn’t done it up till this point.

    I could say that the Harry sci-fi estro stuff is not true…or used as allegories…or not really that bad anyway…then again it makes total sense you wouldn’t agree with me…I mean…if I am in such an organization, and totally indoctrinated by it, that is exactly what you would expect me to say…right! You don’t know me very well. Don’t know my background. It is understandable…and OK.

    To have something live up to it’s claims you have to try it on.

    It is a shame things have been tainted so much for you about development courses. Yes there are good and bad, they often say the same thing. However in reality some have gross hidden agendas, or run more by peoples egos than their higher selves.

    Again I could say with my best whine…But Avatar is different…and again…voila…just what you would expect from someone sooo involved.

    The best thing to compare with trainings, I believe, is the amount of personal responsibility a course encourages, how much of a heavy reliance it has on a technique or procedure to solve something in your life. The Avatar course is about you taking full responsibility for how you create your world. No outside influences, bag childhood experiences or alien brainwashing to blame.

    Having an experience of this is the only thing that does not deplete over time. (For example, you don’t wake up suddenly on morning and forget how to drive your car…or ride your bike) Again this is what i see the real difference with Avatar. A person actually gets such a personal experience of driving their consciousness, that it gets MORE potent over time after the training, the more they operate deliberately.

    Again i totally agree with you. It makes sense to return to the “mothership” if your life is not working out. (really like that analogy)…sorry no mother ships here. From a buddhist perspective…you ARE the mother ship. Reality starts…and ends…with you.

    Not sure what else I can say about it. It is a shame you have had some discouraging experiences along you path. But i would like to ask. What is your path if you have one? What do you want to create for yourself?

  24. I have read with interest the various views on the Avatar course. The claim about Eldon Braun is well-documented and when you read his writings appears a man obsessed. I would not trust his views any more than I would devotees of the Avatar course.

    A few points tend to stand out for me. Palmer appears to have been forced to stop claiming a false degree (Masters in Educational Psychology) – though why anyone would think a degree such as that would equip you to be a spiritual and self-development guru is a mystery to me! Why all the rather silly terminology? Wizards, masters etc. Avatar? Thirdly, why so expensive? Though… apparently cheaper than the Scientology courses/membership that purportedly Palmer’s courses are derived from.

    It does seem that Palmer is making a lot of money from this and that it it is a quite old form of multi-level marketing. It would also seem that he has been less than honest over the years. Lastly, there seems to be a reasonable amount of info on the web about the ‘entities infestation’ stuff though it would be good to hear about it from someone other that Eldon Braun who was done for copyright infringment for pinching Palmer’s material and marketing it as his own.

    According to the info in Wikipedia, the Galactic Confederacy and aliens stuff was in Palmer’s first Wizard’s course in 1991, but I’m not clear on how that can be verified. It certainly reads as totally whacko!

    I was approached by some Avatar converts last week (Masters level) and the pitch was definitely manipulative and immediately set off warning bells for me. I’ve seen enough cults to know that feeling! I for one won’t be parting with $3000…there are simpler and cheaper ways to grow and develop.

  25. Hi Andrew.

    Re your comment:Palmer appears to have been forced to stop claiming a false degree (Masters in Educational Psychology) – though why anyone would think a degree such as that would equip you to be a spiritual and self-development guru is a mystery to me! hahaha – good point!

    Needless to say, I think you’re bang on the button with everything you wrote.

    Dunno what it’s like these days, but I think the Landmark Forum is good value for money. It certainly was when I did it – back in about 1994 ($300 for a very intensive and pretty fascinating weekend). And once you’ve completed it, you get 10 weeks free follow-up guiding you in putting their “technology” into practice.

    It is typical of these types of organisations, though, to bombard you with, erm, “invitations” to pay up for far more expensive courses, all with promises that they’ll give you the capacity to change your life forever, empower you to create exactly the life you want blah blah – just like Avatar!

    All the NLP-based courses share these sorts of promises in common. None of them are truly unique. Stewart J kept insisting that Avatar is, but nothing he wrote is any different from the sorts of promises I have heard time and again from any number of NLP-based organisations. I believe he is sincere, but I also believe he has not properly investigated the other organisations that promise exactly the same sorts of things he thinks are unique to Avatar.

    I should add that Landmark has all the usual cult-like elements to it…eg: disciples who work tirelessly for the organisation for free – and do their best to draw you into doing the same. If you’re aware of the pressure you’ll get from the start, though, both to join the merry band of bros and sisters “helping out” and to enrol in ever-more-expensive courses, you can take what you want and reject the rest.

    I think all – or at least most – of these courses do have worthwhile stuff to offer. You just have to be careful and strong enough to stay your own person and not get sucked into gradually transforming into a self-development junkie. And as you say, 3K is too much. Better spent on books and even psychoanalysis or therapy – IF you can find a decent shrink.

  26. I guess guys the most interesting thing you probably already know, is how your judgements and opinions will effect what you percieve. I totally understand and can appreciate your viewpoints and where you are coming from about them. I know first hand how past experiences can influence the present time believing.

    Having the internet and second hand knowledge is hazardous at best. At worst, it can be a sort of soft indoctrination. It depends on what you believe. Have you emailed Harry directly to get the answers you are looking for?

    I have come a somewhat varied background, from the Military to having a wide experience with many different spiritual teachings and “those” courses. All of which often “talked” about creating ur own reality, but fell flat in their “walk”. (I have a very good bullshitometer) There is a big difference between studying what an apple tastes like and eating the apple.

    The continued worldwide popularity of the Avatar course is that it comes free of any indoctrinating beliefs or ritualistic methodologies. Regardless of what you may have read of heard on the net.

    Avatar continues to attract people from many countries, cultures, backgrounds and religions. They come together and experience what it is like to have no judgements on one another.

    It is not unusual to have Buddhist monks, nuns and Christian ministers working together, even chanting Hindu mantras like “Om Shanti” !!; the material is highly spiritual and totally non-religious.


  27. Hi Roland. Thanks for the response. Glad you got a chuckle : )

    Stewart, I like your non-attacking approcah…however, I’m unconvinced. I agree with Roland that these sorts of courses would have plenty of good stuff in them – after all, the material is often trawled from a wide variety of successful programs and other sources. I also don’t doubt that fine people come together and it all feels wonderful for many. My issues are these…as stated, I don’t trust the motivation of the leader and if the leader is dodgy then the organisation is there to support the dodgy leader, whether the followers realise it or not. The Divine Light Mission and Guru Maharaji is a prime example. I also have a problem with groups that use emotional boundary bombing, often through very long days (with sleep deprivation) and lots of hype-it-up previous participants egging people on. It’s manipulative and has been shown to not have lasting effects despite what appears to be considerable emotional catharsis for many. ‘Money and You’ is one org that perfected this technique. The Russians successfully used the lack of sleep bit but omitted the friendly hype-up squad!

    Lastly, as Roland has identified with groups like Landmark – and Avatar converts do the same – I don’t like the leaders’ manipulation of participants to manipulate other people (often family members) into becoming participants. I was on the receiving end of some of these techniques last week and they are definitely sneaky and designed to be covert. The end aim with many groups is to ensure that those wanting to make money out of it make as much money as possible, and more so as you ascend the pyramid. I fail to see how that is either spiritual or ethical. I don’t care how good the material is…if the roots are rotten then the tree will be rotten.

  28. I noticed Andrew post calling “the claim about Eldon is well documented and when you read his writing appears a man obsessed.”Andrew, saying this without the documentation
    is bad form. Where is this documentation. EPC45?. Better do than that self serving Stars Edge propaganda. As far a Eldon appearing
    obsessed, you haven’t have culled his writing very far. Best,Jake..

  29. Gosh Jake, if I’d known it was an international peer-reviewed journal I would have supplied the appropriate references!

  30. Dear Rolan Stein

    Is it too soon to say I think I love you?

    Ah dear, how I laughed, reading through your replies. Particularly “I don’t trust a person who doesn’t understand or practise paragraphing”.

    And laugh isn’t something I’ve done much of over the last few days, seeing as I have just saved my partner from being brainwashed into the pseudo-psychological bastard child of Scientology. He went along to the free introductory course (yes, a “friend” suggested the course), and all five of the participants then signed up to attend the full weekend course (NZ$390). He then rang me on Sunday night to say he was staying late “to do some more exercises” and that he was flying to the States on Thursday to take part in another course. Um… WTF?! When I asked how much it was, he said $3000 – he failed to mention it’s actually $3000 US, with airfares and accommodation on top of that. And when I asked how the Avatars even knew there would be flights at such notice, well, what do you know – one of the guys just happened to have their laptop there to look up and check.

    I immediately went online, along with my sister, and we have done some extensive research about Avatar. Which is how I ended up on your site.

    I totally agree that you’d have to be pretty stupid to fall for this rubbish, which is why it seems incomprehensible that someone I’ve spent the last 4 years with would jump right into it in one session.

    What he and one of the other students found so strange was how the introductory course wasn’t an introduction at all, but went straight into some of the Avatar teachings and exercises without any warning or information about how the evening was going to progress. From what I’ve now read of LGATs (large group awareness training), and from what I now know about the Avatar exercises, it sounds like there was a touch of mild hypnosis and suggestion going on. How else would they get a 100% hit rate from an introductory course? Not even Tony Robbins could probably claim that. What I mean by mild hypnosis and subliminal suggestion is the repetitiveness of the exercises and talking slowly. E.g. “Put your attention on the right wall. Now put your attention on the left wall. Now put your attention on the back wall. Now put your attention on the floor. Now put your attention on the front wall. Now look at the front wall and put your attention on the back wall.” Or something along those lines. Now, unlike Harry, I do actually have a degree in psychology, and from my experience, the only sound thing the Avatars are teaching is rehashed cognitive behavioural therapy. Except from people who have no training in the ability to deal with possibly traumatised individuals looking for help.

    I finally got through to my partner on the Monday night. He said he started having doubts, especially when one of the trainers mentioned “integration” when talking about the Masters course in the States. Another thing I had warned my partner about, and which made him sceptical on that same day – when he wanted to leave at 7pm (he’d been there since 9am), they sat him down and said they wanted him to continue till 10pm to finish his exercises. (Not sure what happened to “you can leave whenever you want”, “there’s no pressure”). The guy then warned my partner to be careful when he got home because there would be resistance from me.

    So that night we went along to see the Avatar loons to say he wasn’t continuing. (I thought a phone call would suffice, but that’s just me). Their lame-arsed playground tactics included trying to stare me out, standing over me on the stairs to try and dominate me, and trying to psychoanalyse why I was concerned about my partner. I didn’t answer.
    The road show is well and truly alive in NZ, and coming to a town near you. Watch out for your wallet. And watch out for their immediacy tactics: introductory course on the Tuesday, two-day course that weekend, stages 2 and 3 Monday-Wednesday, then fly to the States that Thursday, or spend your Christmas and new year (away from your family, because that’s how brainwashing works best) on a course in Australia.

  31. Never too soon, Karly, and never too late! 🙂

    Thanks a lot for your post giving a personal insight into the modus operandi of Avatar. Of course, I’m not surprised by your revelations, but it’s good to have one’s suspicions supported by real evidence from a rational person with professional knowledge of the psychological strategies these twats employ in snaring their recruits.

    Glad to hear your partner woke up in time. Sounds like you handled the intimidation by this gaggle of cultists admirably.

    That warning to your partner to “be careful when he got home because there would be resistance from me” is insidious, and typical of these organisations. MLM companies teach their new cannon fodder the same, using terms like “dreamstealers” to counter in advance any objections or cautions family and friends might express.

    It’s a pretty crafty and effective strategy to counter the rational objections of significant others who have not been infected with the propaganda virus.

    Obviously enough, objections from significant others need to be overcome at this early stage long enough to whisk the recruit away to a locale insulated from persons of influence, where further intensive indoctrination can take place free of outside intrusion.

    But I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know!


  32. Just what do they do exactly?

    I have read these posts with interest, as a teacher at the school where I teach is apparently into Avatar. She attempted to do a ‘presentation’ to the staff and board, ( I wasn’t there) and has been told they are not interested. She takes the remedial children, and the behaviourally challenged.

    I am an ex-scientologist, and am quite active on the Ex-scene. Recently, I was interviewed in the paper, and some of the teachers at school read this article, and have asked me for advice, as they have seen the link Avatar has with scientology. They are very fearful about what is happening with this teacher, who flies off to Australia regularly for courses.

    It’s difficult to know what to do and how to prevent her from influencing the children. She put pressure on another teacher to travel with her to Australia for a course, until she was told to back down. I have been asked if it is dangerous, a cult, crazy …. and quite frankly I don’t know.

    The thing is that she is ‘getting results’ with these problem children that no one else wants to deal with, and the parents have seen changes in their behaviour. Well, if you ask me, that’s the hook. It all looks good at the start, you get sucked in, and it’s all down hill from there.

    Any ideas about what this teacher might be DOING with these children would be helpful.


  33. Hmmm,not sure about your post, Once Bitten – it could be interpreted as a sly promo of Avatar. But to give you the benefit of some lingering doubt, which could well be a function of my extreme cynicism…

    Who knows what this teacher is ‘doing’ with the kids? Why not just ask her? Isn’t it the right of any parent or any head to ascertain the methodologies of teachers? This teacher can hardly close the door of the classroom and deny entry to a head who wishes to audit her teaching.

    If she is getting good results with the kids, why is Avatar even an issue? How do you know Avatar has anything to do with her teaching success? Was she once a mediocre teacher and now, after doing Avatar, is suddenly shining with pedagogical brilliance?

    As for influencing the kids, it’s not as if devotees of Avatar possess demonic powers to capture the minds and souls of young children. What purpose would there be, anyway – to send them out into the world to infect populations en masse with an Avatar virus?

    It is typical of Avatar and many other ‘self-development’ groups to proslytise through their recruits, so this teacher’s attempts to draw other staff into her Avatar world is not surprising. She’s been warned off (sensibly and appropriately) by her superiors, so that should be that. Any individual who still chooses to investigate Avatar in their own time as a result of this teacher’s promo work is free to do so, surely?

    I don’t see the problem…?

  34. Well, I certainly had to laugh at your suspicions! Man, I’ve spent enough of my life in one cult and I’m not about to jump back into another one, I can assure you of that!

    I will approach this teacher and ask what she’s doing, and I’ve spoken to some of the other teachers as well and have picked up a few bits and pieces. I’ve also asked on the ex-scientologists message board to see what people know, and it appears to be not much.

    Thanks anyway. It was interesting to get some info from this site anyway.

  35. From Victoria Australia.
    Here’s my two cents worth and maybe it just might through enough doubt in a person’s or loved one’s mind to not go ahead with this lunacy.

    All dollar amounts contain personal expenses in addition to course costs.

    Long story short:
    Me 49 years- Successful businessman over 25 years, financially astute, four children, life experience, positive, calculated risk taker, level headed, somewhat cynical. Major Assets.

    Met woman – her, 44 years, unsuccessful businesswoman, 4 children, financially naive and broke, positive, risk taker, wanted to repair her life regarding finances. $40000 assets

    Unbelievably fantastic stable relationship for 2 months. Mid July, Attend ‘free’ avater night at suggestion of her friend (Avatar Wizard). During night I see pressure and sales pitch and smell rat immediately, she puts on rose colored glasses and buys book.
    Cost $50 c/card.

    End July, informs me attending 3 day introduction interstate and leaving tomorrow. Cost $1700 c/card.
    Me fine – self improvement for her.

    End of 3 days rings me and staying on for another 7 days to do next level. Cost $2500 c/card. (Scarce food in house for children and business against the wall).
    I question – internet discovery, Tell her cult.

    3 days later inform her of cult and urge will come and fly you home. Says maybe. 2 days later says no They told me I am in vulnerable state and must complete course.

    Comes home, forgetful and absent minded and stays that way. Now $10000 assets.
    Relationship fine.

    One week later Avatar hype reduces and slight depression appears.

    Avatar propaganda incessantly arrives.

    Mid September, business failed and owing big time with huge interest costs. Attends refresher course in Geelong. “Free” I wonder why??
    Relationship fine. Now no assets. Increasingly desparate.

    Secretive friends now with Avatar organiser.
    Avatar propaganda still incessantly arriving.

    Now spruiking Avatar lifestyle.

    Mid November, Now owes $5000 no assets, unemployed, me supporting her, borrowing off friends. Informs me flying to Florida in two weeks to do masters course. I explain facts of life to her (including where is money coming from, passport etc?). Will get it somehow and has obtained new $5000 credit card questionably.
    Relationship damaged.

    End November, borrows $4000 off last naive financial friend left, scratches together $1000 – ebay, friends. No food in house, flies Florida. Cost $10000
    Relationship ended.

    Mid December, returns vague and mentally changed. Now owes $15000 no assets.

    End December, is hugely depressed and confused and vague.

    Start January ’09, rented house gone, no internet or mobile phone, her living with friends, children dispersed. Now owes $20000 no assets.

    Mid January moves into triple mortgaged rundown house she was renting out to someone.

    Mid February, still unemployed, barely a utility, children come and go. Now owes $30000, no assets.
    Apparantly now, somehow manages to “refinance house” and is flying to Florida to do Wizards course. Cost $20000.

    Total Avatar cost – $34250
    Total relationship cost – substantial
    Total family cost – substantial.
    Total personal and mental cost – absolutely huge and immeasurable.





    Oh, and on a positive note, I’ve moved ahead totally intact and on to a new relationship (truly wonderful) and am all the wiser for the experience in many areas, for my own and my childrens benefit.

    Just my two cents worth (and not a punctuation error in sight)! Please feel free to copy this and post it anywhere – it may save someone….

    Have a nice life everyone.

  36. I worked on the production staff of one of these Wizards courses. You want a firsthand account of what happens there?

    They exorcize demons. Seriously.

    The course starts out relatively plausibly, with generic platitudes about life being what you make of it. It moves onto lectures and dance numbers telling the attendees that reality isn’t anything other than what you believe it is. Then it ends with excercizing demons.

    And, although this is a pure ad hominem attack and does not actually reflect on the validity of the message (which, IMO, stands on its own merits as being pure quackery), Avra is a complete ego-maniac. She drove the crew to distraction with her diva demands and attitudes. So much for the caring, loving, “enlightened” beings who are out to create a better world civilization.

  37. Failed Relationship,

    With every anecdote from people like you, this mob smells worse. Your ex-partner’s trajectory is similar to that of any addict – and indeed, addicts are precisely what cults seek to create in their recruits and devotees. Get someone dependent on the group for self-esteem, purpose and future direction, and you take away their power and induce in them a state of dependency and blind faith such that they’ll lose their sense of the rational – as happened with your ex. Just evil. Thanks for your post.


    Fuck, it’s worse than I thought! The wonder is that intelligent people could ever take these twats seriously…but the manipulation is sophisticated and the psychological methodologies tested and proven. Get the right person at the right moment of vulnerablility, and it could be any of us – well, almost any of us.

    Who’s ‘Avra’, by the way?

  38. Not Happy Jan

    I completed sections 1 and 2 in Geelong Vic in Jan 09.

    I was hassled by a ‘friend’ for over 5 years to do the avatar coarse. I finally relented late last year.

    During the coarse I turned into an emotional wreck. On several occassions I left in tears, and be crying in public – something I have never done before.

    No-one at the coarse was qualified to assess my mental health and I was left to fend for myself.

    My main reason for doing the coarse was to improve my finances. I had enough money only for Sec 1 = $330.

    Half way through sec 1 I was asked if wanted to continue, I said I didnt have the money right now, I will come back for the next coarse. I explained I was in a lot of debt and was feeling really overwhelmed by this. THE PRESSURE WAS APPLIED.

    I was told I would create it if I really wanted it. There are no boundries! I called family, friends, bank, etc. I used the last $700 on my cc to pay for sec 2. Waste of time and money!!

    I admit I was swept up by the group dynamics, and the promise of a better life.

    I was then asked to complete sec 3. A designated ‘MASTER’ came over to assess my finacial situation. We looked at all of my finacial details. Then the focused shifted to who could help. I was told that my problem was I dont like asking for help!!

    I was so close to the end and desperatly wanted to finish to be ‘ENGLIGHTENED’. I rang family and freinds, getting $2,000 within 24 hrs.

    My intuition stopped me – finally my spiritual self kicked in! I knew if I added this debt to my shoulders it would create a lot more depression and worry. I left just in time.

    Bottom line – ITS A BUSINESS

  39. Thanks for your comments, Balin. Of course, you’re right – the bottom line is the bottom line for Avatar (and many others like them). This is the case with any business, but not all businesses so mercilessly exploit vulnerable people in crisis. It disgusts me.

    Glad you pulled out before they bled you of that $2000. The notion that you can buy ‘enlightenment’, or that this mob of frauds has it to sell, is ludicrous.

  40. Hi everyone…

    Would love to share my story about avatar with you and love some feedback/advice…
    I am so confused now…It doesnt feel right to me to continue my avatar journey at this stage…

    I’ve done section one and two in Geelong in dec/jan, off to Auckland next week to review section 2 and do section 3… but… not so sure anymore…

    My friend showed me your site, she’s angel..

    There is a lot of pressure in Avatar and I hate that. Me being a dutchie living in aussie want to do the masters in Holland, in my native language.. They wont let me, its stupid, and they are not even clear about why not?… “You’ll be disocnnected to the aussie team…” that’s the best they came up with…”You’ll understand once you do the masters in Orlando..”

    Yeah right.. at this stage I dont want to do masters at all and am doubtful about Auckland…

    After section 1 on the sundaynight I was a mess, I felt like someone messed with my brain..
    I should have listened to my gutt feeling/guides and should’ve come home that night, Avatar could be just not my thing.

    I gave it a chance the rest of the week. And quite liked it.
    The way all the masters are lined up around the whole room was very unpleasant, watching everybody.. It did not feel right at all…
    I entered the room by accident on the fridaynight before that, thought I could meet my coursemates…wrong, they made sure I left the room asap… this evening was for masters only… ok.. and I took off, feeling strange about how they wanted me out of that room…

    While on the course, in the breaks, the doors are closed tight… they are always meeting and I assume they talk about the students…

    I dont like the vagueness, they are not open…
    And once in an exercise, hitting some real good stuff, there was a break, fair enough we had to have lunch. Back from lunch, we have to watch Harry Palmer talking on a video. I just wanted to get back to my own stuff. And God, does this man talk soooo slow.
    “Harry talks ‘in feel'”, was the answer”
    Haha, what a joke…
    I talk in feel too, but not so slow, come on!!!

    The words he uses made me feel he is from another planet. A planet I dont want to be…
    I said that many times, and they never answered to that.. haha.

    Because its true.
    My feeling is he’s not real. He can be in feel, I dont care. I want to be in my own “feel” and still use my brains and mainly follow my gutt instinct…

    I love the materials, the product, but not their selling/pressure/vagueness/dishonesty etc…

    I have done lots of personal growth stuff, believe me. Avatar is sooo expensive… I dont want to do the business/pressure side of it. Yuk!

    Thinking of changing from Avatar to NLP…

    Any advice?

  41. Hi Moz.

    I’m not in a position to advise you on specifics. You’ll know my views, as expressed in the post and in the comments thread. I’d give these arseholes a wide berth. There are cheaper options for your “self-development”. And from what I’ve heard, Avatar IS NLP based. Chuck in a bit of mystic bullshit, work in some terminology, add a decent dose of populist psychology, and you have the package with most of these groups.

    If you’re determined to shell out big bucks, I’d do some research on good psychoanalysts, and pursue that direction.

    Otherwise, Landmark’s Forum is relatively cheap, is certainly NLP based (whatever they may claim), is only a weekend in duration, and you get 10 weeks follow-up for free – but I’m talking years ago. Things might have changed.

    Be warned, Landmark is also a business and they will do their best to enroll you in ever more expensive courses on the promise of “living more powerfully”. I can vouch personally for the Forum – it’s very worthwhile. But I’d leave it at that. Having done their S.E.L.P program, which is pricey, my findings were that over the long term you get just as much out of the Forum at minimal expense.

    The positive effects of all these courses wear off in time, unless you keep dipping back into the group. And who wants to be hostage to that? Nothing more tedious or annoying than a self-development junkie – except, perhaps, an Amway or other MLM victim.

    Good luck with whatever you decide!


  42. Hi Rols,
    Nice to see your still enjoying talking about Avatar.
    WOW!! A few of these guys need help.
    I am sure if they contacted thier masters and/or other Stars Edge staff they would get the clarification they need. i.e.: money back or further support.

  43. G’day T – our Mensa coach with the 142 IQ and an outstanding talent for disguising his superior intellect…and by God, yer a champ – ye’ve dunnit again!

    Noooo, I’m not “still enjoying talking about Avatar” – just replying to readers who comment. Would be discourteous not too, wouldn’t it? And you’ll have noted by now that I’m a fair and polite individual. You wouldn’t want me to compromise my personal values, wouldja? That’d mean I wouldn’t be responding to you now, and you wouldn’t like that, would ya?

    To get serious, for a moment, it’s interesting to me that there should be regular comments from disgruntled Avatar victims on a blog that only gets 100 or so hits per day at present, and not many at all on this post…seems to be some discontent amongst the punters out there who’ve been sucked into the Avatar marketing bullshit, nyet?

    Which all goes to affirm my cynical take on Avatar.

    Still, good to have it publicly stated here by your good self that Avatar offer a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE.

    There you go, all you commenters with grievances against Avatar – take up T’s suggestion. Go and ask for your refunds, and report back here on how you went.

  44. T…if you are representative of an Avatar graduate then that’s scary. I am amazed at your suggestion that the people who were screwed up by the Avatar facilitators should go back to those same people for help! Though asking for a full refund with perhaps a bit of digitus impudicus might be a satisfying healing process!

  45. Scary’s the word, Andrew!

    Your ‘healing experience’ sounds pretty healthy to me. Maybe you should start a cult, oops, I mean self-development course?

  46. My mother (an incredibly intuative being) made the decision to go along to Avatar’s info session in Geelong at the end of last year, in an effort to “shut up” one of her friends who had been hassling her to do so. I warned her about getting sucked in to anything, to which I was assured “Don’t be ridiculus”…

    On day two of the course she woke up with a migraine and was unable to continue (warning bell number 1?). She was subsequently hounded by these people and convinced to return to complete her “enlightenment”. This was when they started really stroking her ego, telling her how she was a natural and she needed to do Masters (although, why she had to give them $2000 to do something she was already a natural at is beyond me… warning bell number 2).

    Upon her return from the 3 day course we sat down and she explained her perception of what they were about. I really felt they sounded like a cult – where does all that money go? – but she insisted that it was all good and she was given some great insight into her life and some tools to help her through some difficult situations she is facing. When I questioned her further involvment with them she assured me that a 10 day Masters course was not what she needed or wanted right now.

    Great, Mum’s feeling happy and she hasn’t been duped out of any more money, until…

    A couple of weeks ago I learn that she is on her way to New Zealand to do Masters at the end of March! What changed?!!!

    To make the warning bells go even more ballistic, she asked to borrow $2000 from me to help pay for her bathroom renovation! At this point I would like to add that my mum and I have an amazing relationship and she has never lied to me before – again, what changed?

    I knew that she had been sucked in by emotive means, so I needed to be careful how I approached. Which is how I ended up on the internet trying to find out the good, the bad and the ugly about this group. I wanted as much fact as I could get and boy was I shocked with what I came up with! I came across this site with all these personal experiences, as well as the links, and I printed it all out for her, highlighting the bits I felt most relevant.

    It felt like a bit of an intervention, but I presented all this to my mum just asking that she read it and go to New Zealand knowing all sides of the story.

    She was so confused, but eventually made the decision not to go. She said once she made that decision she felt like a weight had been lifted and she felt great! The money she had tried to transfer into their account to pay for the course had bounced back into her own account(an omen perhaps?), so no money lost there, and she was able to transfer her flight to later this year when she’ll go to a convention for her work. On top of that, it’s like her world has done a backflip and everything’s going right all of a sudden! Not to mention I no longer have a sick feeling in my stomach!!!

    And to all those Avatar faithfuls out there – no I don’t think that any publicity is good publicity. This forum helped convince my mother not to waste her money, and the more people who contribute their experiences, the better informed others will be to make their own decisions.

    As I said to mum – the people on here have nothing to gain from criticising Avatar, it’s not like they’re trying to convince anyone to do some other course, they just want to warn people against this one!

  47. Hi Just in time, and thanks for contributing your mother’s story. Tales like this just keep on comin’…

    DO urge your mother to take up T’s suggestion of contacting the “Stars Edge” staff for a refund of her money. And please post back here on the outcome!

    Somehow, I find it difficult to countenance the prospect of this mob coughing up a full refund (or any at all), but they are clearly a business first and foremost, and if the product has not fulfilled client expectations – or worse, has damaged the client psychologically, financially or otherwise – surely a full refund would be appropriate, if not obligatory? Plus compensation? Why not get some initial legal advice?

    Watching and waiting, Avatar…

  48. Dear All,

    My ex hubby is now involved in Avatar. He’s done with the wizard course in Florida early this year. He lied more than ever and his attitude changed. He is not strong financially, yet he still spend all what he got for all Avatar courses. I would like to know where can I find the ex-Avatar master, so I can convince mu ex to leave this group before its too late. IMO, my ex needs a lot of attention from others, and he is fragile inside. I am so concern about what he is doing. Does anyone can help?

  49. Well, Gabby, he is your ex. I guess he’s free to make his own mistakes.

    All you can do is express your concern to him and give your reasons, and if you’ve done this, that’s surely where your responsibility ends!

    Maybe you need to let go? Just a thought.

    Anyway, all the best.

  50. Rols,
    Someone of your intellect should know that a high IQ doesnt make you smart, it only means you know lots of shit!!!
    PS Andrew is this Rolands blog or yours?
    Keep up the good work Rols , make sure all the people who cant handle evolving , jump on Darwins boat when the big floods come(or should that be ESTROS Ship?)

  51. My girlfriend got into Avatar by her mother, who is studying to be a Master (or is it Wizard).
    I must add, her mother has attended Master training trips to the U.S time and time again, only to be told that she is “not quite there”. So she has to pay another ridiculously high course fee, to “try again”. She is not a wealthy woman, it makes me sick to my stomach that they are stealing from her in this way. If she had put that money towards formal training she would have been able to afford a REAL qualification by now and wouldn’t be living in a share house at 60 years of age.
    My friend was depressed and had been on anti-depressants for many years. Immediately on joining Avatar she went off her medication, and became really absent minded and unreliable. She came back from a course in Cairns and then from a course in the States and it was like she was high on drugs. She had these really intense relationships with men while on the courses, and then would be devestated that they wouldn’t stay in contact with her.
    The only time I hear from her now, is when she calls to try to convince me to go along to a free session.
    No thanks! I have seen how much her life has changed, and honestly it isn’t a good thing. She had stability, and yeah she went through a traumatic break-up, but Avatar hasn’t stopped her from having bad relationships with men, instead she has just packed up everything she owns and has physically moved herself away from the people she knows (and probably the memories too). She’s in denial.
    Why can’t she see that they just want her money?

  52. Crikey T! You do like attempting to make enemies don’t you! Though I did notice that you are now calling Roland “Rols”. Has the relationship changed? Roland, is there something we should all know? : P

    Re the ‘who’s blog is this’ comment (and yes I know that even responding reinforces your behavior… but it’s free entertainment from you)…you may have noticed a big red buttony sort of thing on this site that says “leave a comment”. I think I can safely say that my comment could be classified as a bonafide comment! Are you unconsciously saying that you want it to be your blog perhaps?

  53. Hi Moz.

    Im not sure If I met you on the coarse. I was there on random days due to work commitments. It would be good to have a chat.

    I rang my master and asked for my money back, we had a long discussion, however it was obvious I wouldn’t be getting a refund!

  54. i have completed sections 1, 2 and 3 in 1996 and continually re-read the basic avatar course, living deliberately, and resurfacing. you can go on with more courses – or not with avatar. i have chosen not to indulge in the “upper” levels of the course simply because i don’t have the money. however, that’s not to say that i wouldn’t want to or wouldn’t find other courses interesting.

    i suppose much of the cynicism is deserved and avatar would be suspect in its dealings with ordinary people, including me. the world is a crazy place to begin with and that was, will be and probable with or with out me. i find the insights and certain basic truths located in the writings to be refreshing and they just feel familiar. what i do with them, if i do anything or not is entirely up to me. let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. if harry palmer took the time to repackage a curriculum to help people disentangle their minds to see things clearer, more power to him. this guy roland, seems to be a moderator or devils advocate on this site. none the less, i like his insidiousness and arguments against avatar, though, i personally hope he’d check it out for himself like i did. roland, we have much more in common than you suspect. your mind is like a piece of the world. i don’t blame you at all. even as an “experiment” you should check it out, because in it’s essence, the course really is all about dealing with your inner child all the way into realms of dealing with your inner asshole. man you have your work cut out for you but lets not forget, there is another lover, more compassionate force that loves you eternally and will never abandon you. see you on the other side.

  55. db66,

    Re your comment: “this guy roland, seems to be a moderator or devils advocate on this site.”

    Huh? My role is clear, surely? I wrote the post that has set off the comments thread. My views as per my post are unambiguous and supported by argument. I am neither ‘moderator’ nor ‘devil’s advocate’. Just a blogger responding to comments, openly and honestly!

    Look, from everything I’ve read and heard, there is nothing unique about Avatar. It is simply repackaged psych and self-development stuff of the type that is peddled by any number of organisations. And NLP is the basis of it. Why would I want to shell out bucks to add to the fortune of Harry Palmer, whom I hold in contempt for his stupid Estro bullshit? That’s the sort of experiment I don’t need to conduct. I have done a lot of self-development stuff over the years and feel no need to sample the Avatar version. Thanks all the same.

    As for Palmer “repackag[ing] a curriculum to help people disentangle their minds to see things clearer” – pshaw! Going on my research, this bloke is no seer, no prophet, no wise old man. My conclusions is that he’s a money man with a feel for spin, taking you dipshits for an expensive ride.

  56. Abi,

    Sorry about this delay in responding. I got a bit bored with this Avatar crap and kept putting it off.

    That is not to say I do not value your comments. Thank you. As is apparent from this comments thread, yours is a familiar tale – unfortunately. Glad to see you have retained your good sense, and I hope your reasoning and logic eventually gets through to those who are caught up in the Avatar web and paying through the nose for the privilege.


    Always enjoy your wit and balance. Thank you for disposing of T – no need for me to waste time on this twit when you have dispatched him so capably!


    Why am I not surprised your “master” slimed out of the refund possibility? Why not email T and ask him to handle your refund request for you – after all, he is active in Avatar and implied here in writing that a money-back guarantee is in order for those who are not satisfied with the Avatar product. Avatar is a business, so like any business, surely they are at least ethically obliged to refund clients who are not satisfied with their product?

  57. Hey db66, your words “there is another lover, more compassionate force that loves you eternally and will never abandon you”.

    Are you talking about God?

    Most people I know who are religious have that inner tranquility… and they only have to put $2 in the collection plate. It is also worth noting, that most religions give back, do Avatar practice any charity?
    Or do your words actually refer to the greedy self-love that is encouraged in the crazy ideas that are similar to those within “The Secret”…

    On another note, The Secret makes me so mad, the most revolting promotion of the worst aspects of capitalism wrapped up in pseudo-science… Vomit.

  58. Excellent points, Abi. And I’m right with you on The Secret! When I read it, I was cocked and ready to fire off a separate post on that clumsy (but commercially canny) ode to materialism and greed. In the end, I couldn’t be bothered. Vomit indeed!

  59. Arrrgghh! Abi…did you have to mention The Secret? : ) At least most people into the Avatar stuff seem to have a fair modicum of sense though it seems occasionally to stop short of recognising the pyramid money-making aspect of the org. However, if devotees of The Secret start posting here I’ll join you in throwing up! But wasn’t the real secret exposed when the lovely spiritually enlightened author was taken to court for ripping off her co-creator and shafting him? Ah…sorry, I’ve started discussing it! Gotta go…stomach’s getting…damn! Just Ralphed on my keyboard!

  60. Rolan

    You are hysterical and very logical.
    i love your posts. there is nothing wrong to seek alternate thinking which brought you to look at this in the first place. notice though that whenever you look people are so convert about discussing things so you immediately suspect something is wrong. If its so frigging wonderful then put it out for the world to see.
    you avatarees….why isnt this stuff so common place? if the world has major issues and you guys have the solutions then why havent you fixed everyone?
    frankly you are simply a cult. There is no other logical conclusion.
    your ideal is to show people how terrible things are for them in life. you strip them down and then anchor your solutions, as long as they buy your books and tapes (or in this case trainings) to their new found futures. That has them coming back time and again for another hit that you charge them heavily for. That is a cult. You are good at it too and you’ve used some good techniques to do it. But that’s what you do.
    you think there is only one right way. you are no different to any other religious organisation. Sacrifice self now for preservation latter in an after life of some descript…..except you propose to offer it in this life with your beliefs. You completely lack any other behavioral flexibility to deal with any alternate comments or thinking systems. how dare we speak against your leaders? If we all thought like you then how diverse would the world be to solve the problems in the current Milleu?
    rolan got to correct you……all these people do come from a planet….youranus!
    still its a good business though. not very ecological…but a damn good perpetuating sustainable business.
    for the good of mankind though maybe they should all be like jim jones. my mate has this big property just outside of Ballarat who would happily welcome a mass suicide! (you avatars don’t go off your brain….its a joke…..i couldn’t care what you did!)
    i think ive stuffed up some spelling and paragraphs somewhere. maybe even some grammar. please have your elders say a prayer for me.
    Rolan i suspect somewhere your having a dig at NLP. don’t know about this one. NLP isnt a cult or anything like that. its just a learning tool to help break down behavioral methods off humans. off course there are F’wits who have learned some stuff in NLP who go out promoting the world would be better if people followed them like Anthony Robbins. you know they why they call these guys Guru’s…..because charlatans is too hard to pronounce!
    anyway back to NLP…..dont shoot the messenger on that one. guys like Marvin Oka and Wyatt Woodsmall are gentlemen and behavioural modelist and have done some amazing work over time using some techniques developed by many many people in very ecological ways and they would welcome conversation. Another 2 well practiced guys are Graeme Brooks and Nell Jeandet whom have been acknowledged for over 10 years to run the best Government (barely supported though) programs for disenfranchised teenage kids in the vic country (kids who have been raped, constantly failing in school or the work force, come from poor family dysfunctional homes, unloved environments etc) and some of their skills used are NLP along with Spiral Dynamics and many other tools. for instance how do you help a kid whose about to suicide? You need to have some good skills to do so.
    they choose to use these tools in a positive way though to teach people ecological life skills. Unfortunately there are still some trained D’heads going around telling people they can help them change their lives! you know what you get when you motivate an idiot though….a motivated idiot! Becareful always to pay attention to the song and not the singer though.
    honestly Rolan your posts are a scream and logical and not once has anyone actually busted you. lots of other people have been emotional but not you. you’ve shown poise. well done. id ask though why argue with these people but it looks like fun so keep giving it to them.
    truth is though youve actually engaged a discussion which has been useful for people who need to find info about this stuff. Now that’s the most positive. It gives people fair choice. Why people wish to attack you personally is symptomatic when they are losing a discussion. Your intent has always to be to make people aware of what these people do and how they do it.
    when people are searching for help the government says go see a psychiatrist. well 10 years later and loads of money they dont help….so who do people turn too? its an issue for society. as long as the avatars dont enforce their values on me or my family then they can go root each other as much as they like. i dont care but Caveat Emptor everyone!
    Im sure there are many many lovely people who do Avatar. Some good wholesome well intentioned people. If they like to belong to groups or cults then fine. But your way isn’t the only way of life and people should be encourage to discuss without emotion. Whilst ive been rude or crude in parts here truth is im a smart arse….but the message is…..dont mess with people if its inappropriate for THEM.
    Well done Rolan.

  61. I am sure the aggresive way you and andrew are speaking of me is only toward what ive said but wow!!!
    You have disposed of me and if anyone wants to contact anyone from avatar they can do it via the website avatarepc.com
    Chill out guys(rols and andy: p.s. your new name andrew) not everyone on the planet is more stupid than you and not everyone is trying to scam you and not everyone is trying to get you to join avatar.
    So try to look at the good most of the people in avatar are acheiving by looking at the results on the website.It might turn you off noticing its flaws so much.

  62. My sister-in-law joined Avatar. Is now completely unstable and desperately requires psychiatric attention. Of course, however, anyone seeking to intervene and assist her is an ‘Avatar Basher’. Nobody ‘understands’ Avatar as we aren’t as intellectually superior as her. She used to be relatively normal (a bit of a natural medicine weirdo, but not psychotic). Now she has spent 10’s of thousands to attain each stage of ‘enlightenment’ at the hands of the fruitcake cult. All that she has ‘achieved’ by way of her positive thinking is having her entire family run a mile, convinced she’s a wacko. She initially attempted to get other family members involved. My husband’s brother received a call from some Avatar spruiker asking if he was interested in doing a course. He was then asked if he had $10,000 available as that was the cost of the initial course! He said no and the caller hung up! $$$$$$, that is all this cult is interested in. The try and appeal to the wealthy and socially elite. When others in that category see their ilk involved, it lends comfort and bolsters the belief that this thing is legit. I’m just waiting for her to drink the Kool Aid. Would be great if a journo would actually look into this fraud and run a decent story.

  63. Hi Coz. I’m sure journos have run stories on this mob. Thing is, I think the public gets a bit sick of these cult tales, so maybe they only run such stories when there is nothing much else around of sensationalist appeal – and that sorta crap abounds.

    Anyway, I get constant hits on this post and thread, even though only a small percentage actually leave comments. I think posts like yours have a lot more credibility than the average journo beatup. Let’s hope enough people pass by to make a difference. Frankly, the more folk are put off this mob the better.

  64. Thousands of dollars to be a “Master”??? No, not for me thanks. I’ll take Christianity any day over this (and I do). I’d even prefer someone to be an Atheist than join cults like this one and be lied to over and over.

    1. I understand your point, Jave. Christianity is at least a hell of a lot more substantial than crap like Avatar. I must say, though, I have little respect for the Christian institutions – or any organised religion, for that matter. I think they’ve done a lot more harm than good through the centuries, and often within their hierarchies they misuse their power and exploit the vulnerable every bit as contemptibly as cults like Avatar.

  65. Thanks for this column. I am a professional counsellor who occasionally come across people who have been in this cult. Sad, isn’t it, that people who are seeking some meaning in their life get caught up in dead ends like this.

    1. Yeah, Ray, sad it is. Worse, it’s the folk who have had some sort of upheaval in their lives, such as a relationship breakup or death of a loved one, who are most vulnerable to cults like this, and probably most likely to be sucked in.

  66. We have had Issues with some of the kids, or when I mean Kids, anyone under 21. Some of the young ones I’ve dealt with who dont fit in with the norms can get involved with this group and others. Ive found it gives them a false sense of belonging, they are then brain washed and used. In fact I believe Avatar is just begining to shine its light.

    Rolan I too have little respect for these Christian churches that you spoke of earlier. They are little more than cults, they generally have, in my opinion the same target audiences in common.

    I went to an “out there” christian church for about 3 months earlier this year, The ones that look like a Giant warehouse, typicaly in an industrial estate,- This one had 3 churches next door to each other in Joondalup. I was going with a freind who needed support while going through lifes probelms

    At this point readers, your probably wondering why didnt I get her counsiling? Try getting a stubborn 20 year old to think sense sometimes and your banging your head against a brick wall.

    Anyway when I went to this place everyone was all happy and wanted to know me, but within a very very short time, I was asked questions like What do you do? each question getting further to the point. Giving them the standard answers of “I push wheelchairs for a living” they then give me the standard talk, and then very quickly we are all ushered in to our seats listing to some bloke up the front who wants me to give 10 percent of what I earn to the church.

    For what? so they can upgrade the churches fleet of Jeeps out the front? Maybe they are not happy with the DOME Cafe inside the joint. Perhaps they want to stick Victoria Bitter on tap for the patrons. Dont wanna sound like a snob, but @ 10 percent per person, The place when I look around has 300 Plus people in it, 10% of the average punters income, say $40,000 is 4 Grand, that is $1200000. – In Donations tax free alone!

    – Without any marketing activities by their marketing department.

    It left me with the conclusion that these groups are generally a marketing excercise. Some smart person has found a way to market religion in such a way that it attracts vulnerable people who come to these groups trying to belong.

    – I just dont like the way they are treated, once they have been taken in.

  67. I am an experienced therapist / coach and was invited to the resurfacing course by a colleague. I thought it might be useful to learn some new perspectives/methods for creating change in people.

    I totally agree with others on this blog that it is a rehash of scientology, NLP and other self development methods, sprinkled with lots of nomenclature and mumbo jumbo dressed up as “the only truth”. The trainer seemed to get very tetchy when I highlighted to others in the group that there were lots of parallels with scientology.

    Some useful information to be had, but certainly nothing new that you couldn’t get elsewhere (probably free). Also, the way in which it is taught is very regimented in that it appears to be a checklist of steps towards enlightenment, you have to sign the check-sheet after completing every step.

    From my background in NLP and Hypnosis, I noticed that some of the exercises were definitely trance inducing, resulting in lots of endorphins floating around the body which could be mistaken for a magical state of bliss to those unaware of hypnotic phenomena. I would also be concerned that not all of these trainers these would be trained or know how to deal with somebody who took a bad turn during one of the exercises. Somebody in our group was clearly having a very emotional experience and the trainer just kept repeating the same command over to her , again and again – which just made her worse!!!

    The unsubtle up-selling for the next level was blatant throughout the two days and frankly, the most annoying aspect of the whole thing. I wondered at times whether the teacher could be so naive to the fact that his sales tactics were so transparent. He had clearly been taught how to reframe or inoculate against any negative suggestion/question from the group about the course or about signing up for further levels. I could smell his desperation to get us signed up.

    My view is stay well away, its got “cult” written all over it, particularly if you are currently feeling vulnerable/emotional.

    Even now I still get the odd call from the teacher offering me the chance to go on the course, with messages like “Hope you are well, if you fancy coming over, just hop on a plane and I will meet you at the airport”

  68. Ross, I see you’ve got some refs to the Landmark Forum stuff. I participated in an original manifestation of this in the 70’s when it was just called ‘Forum” – a mere $700 for the 4 day full monty. Lot of moolah in those days.
    Essentially it was a local version of the EST thing out of the US. More mumbo jumbo dressed up as meaningfulness – and of course all very profound and expensive. Did I mention over developed ego’s and money grabbing wankers? Anyway, its a LONG story into which I became embroiled and got a little press. (Remember the Western Mail?) Just more nasty shite to be avoided I reckon. Detest it all.
    Still turn to your site for erudite reviews and comment. Hope you going well.Dennis

  69. Shit, I just read some of the Avatar posts. Proof positive that large brains are absolutely irrelevant re intelligence/common sense. God, aint there some morons in the world – and another born every nano second it seems!
    Add this lot to the Climate skeptics and the nutters currently running the Republican agenda in the US and you can see why as a species we’re well and truly fuckin doomed. You ever get the urge to slap people really really hard in the hope…?
    Christ Rolan I need drugs… some cutting edge, really helpful ones. Tell me there’s still hope! Dennis F.

  70. Hello everyone,

    I like how this shows the diversity of opinions there are about Avatar. I think this clearly illustrates how important it is that there is no universal ‘right way’…if Avatar floats someones boat and helps them become a better person, awesome, if it doesn’t feel right then don’t continue. The beauty of intuition. A hundred different ways to the top of the mountain right?

    I’ve done the first two sections of the course and are very thankful that I did. Yes they are expensive, no one denies that. But I must say the amount of time my ‘master’ spent with me helping me out probably reflected a minimum wage equivalent. I think its cool that people are able to get a decent wage from helping inspire others to take more responsibility and hey money is a collective reality right! It would be great if every self development course was free!

    (Just a note, In his materials Harry does say from the start that if something doesn’t resonate with you don’t take it on and really does emphasize that he doesn’t want to be anyones guru but encourages you to be your own guru)

    Although I’ve decided not too continue for the present moment I probably will when it feels right again, I feel no pressure at all from these people and could easily tell them if I did. Every person I met was extremely present, understanding, non judgmental and loving and I feel pretty grateful that I delved into learning more about myself, my patterns and really taken responsibility with my life now. I can’t lie anymore, I can’t live out of integrity anymore and I strive to always live in my heart with discernment from my head (and yes i flew half way around the world for this and it was worth it)

    Have you watched any of Harry’s Dvd’s? You can download them easily from the Avatar website. I find them quite inspiring, even if you don’t have the money do do the courses, maybe you’ll get something out of them.

    In my experience we tend to label the things we’re afraid of negatively…… and I think we’ve all done it. I’m not assuming that anyone on this blog is afraid but I just find it interesting that people put so much energy into discrediting something they haven’t experienced themselves. It seems prevalent in human interaction. I’ve heard quite a few weird and wonderful stories about Avatar and I agree that some of the exercises do look weird to the outsider (I’m sure i looked like a spaced out zombie staring at trees)… but they’re actually quite fun, simple and profound. I think I got the most out of seeing people just being really honest, dropping their masks and just being really real.

    I really do resonate with the ‘don’t knock it till you’ve tried it’ deal and decide for yourself, rather than someone else’s opinions, skepticism is healthy.

    Whats so bad about some dude inspiring others to live in an enlightened planetary civilization anyhow? I could think of far worse things, I reckon it sounds pretty good! And I’m not so fussed about Harry being involved in the past in Scientology, I know I’ve done some pretty weird stuff that I don’t relate to my current state of being yet am grateful for the way its shaped me.

    Rolan or others, I hope you haven’t taken offence to my post and I thank you all for your contributions, hope it wasn’t too fluffy!

  71. Virginia, I can only conclude that either you are heavily involved in the Avatar movement and this is a not-so-subtle attempt to enlist people or else you refusing to comprehend and absorb what others have written above. Many posters in this thread have had highly negative experiences of the cult either first-hand or via a loved-one. On the whatever floats your boat comment…some find heroin floats their boat for a while also. Doesn’t mean it’s good for you.

  72. Precisely, Andrew. That “whatever floats your boat” stuff is wishy-washy and ill-considered, and as you’ve demonstrated in your heroin analogy, does not stand up to rational scrutiny.

    This, I suspect, is just another attempt by Avatar to stem the bleeding – this thread detracts from their credibility, of course, and it must niggle them to know it comes up as listing number 1 whenever anyone googles ‘avatar cult’, or similar.

    The irony is, the more they attempt to mitigate against the bad publicity on this thread with comments like this latest from ‘Virginia’, the more likely this link will retain its prominent listing on Google.

    Oh, and Virginia – thanks for your comment. Regardless of whether you are an Avatar stooge or a genuine poster, at least you know you won’t be censored here. Can the same be said of Avatar and its inner circle, I wonder?

  73. Hi again Andrew and Rolan. Thank you for your replies.

    I did those courses about three years ago and the only contact I’ve had with my friend who is a master is catch up phone calls.

    I am surprised that you think I am a stooge. I think that Avatar would be wasting their time pretending to be someone they’re not.

    When I hear you referring to ‘the inner circle’ I imagine you’re referring to the materials not being published and shared, another post commented on this further up. When I asked my master this question she explained it is because of the experiential learning aspect of the exercises…(which are all very similar to the one that is currently freely available and published ‘Resurfacing’) They can be read and formulated from a mental perspective but they don’t work from that perspective. That is why so much of the course focuses on feeling and tuning in and experiencing…and this you could do on your own but its far easier if you have someone there to guide you through, particularly if you are going through some hard stuff.

    When i made the comment about ‘whatever floats your boat’ I again refer to intuition, I think a Heroin addict may not be too in tune with their intuition. I am a genuine person so please hear what I say and don’t nit pick. And I don’t claim to be an amazing intellectual but just wanting to share by perspective of my experience.

    There were definitely moments on the course where I wondered if i was in a cult and i’m sure its a common occurrence for most participants to have this thought. Usually it would come when I didn’t want to face something, or just how happy everyone was…but i think it’s more that we’re just not used to being around so much love and support in our everyday society that it freaks us out and we come up with justifications.

    As far as people having concerns for loved ones, fair enough, if you don’t know how it works and the processes because you haven’t done it I can see why, my parents were much the same but after completing the course saw that i hadn’t changed into some psycho, they let it go.

    I would encourage that people save for the courses before reaching for the credit card though to avoid the story that another bloke listed above. I’m sure his ex partner has a different story than his, and maybe she did hit rock bottom. I don’t think Avatar is ‘the answer’ but it does work for many people which is why so many people are attracted to it. I have had friends who have done both Landmark and Avatar and they day the difference is that Avatar is more gentle and more with connecting with heart rather than head.

    I assume you guys will think i’m some kind of ill considered fluffy hippy, but thats cool. I have no agenda just to share.

    Have a great day.

  74. Oh, I think your agenda is very clear, Virginia. Enough sly backdoor promotion for Avatar, thanks.

    BTW, your tone and language is just about identical to your mates Stewart J and db66, who posted similar promos earlier in the thread. They train you people well. Or should I be using the singular, perhaps?

  75. Well, mine are always a bit sweaty, ACS. OK if I just look on benignly? Hmmm, that’s a bit of an ask, actually!

  76. Hello,
    I did a couple of the courses. And well, I really got a lot out of the tools, some which I continue to use.

    Ahhhh…. I had massive issues with how they would try to sell me on the next courses. Each course gets exponentially more expensive. You have a mentor at Avatar who calls you from time to time and will spend time chatting with you. At first I found this great because this person would apply some of the techniques that helped to find solutions to issues I was having or help me find a different perspective. However, what they do when the know so much about you is use that info to get you to do the next course which they call “taking the next step”. As they know all your insecurities, problems etc. the will drop those in and make promises of fixing them by “taking the next step”.

    I was bitterly angry with my mentor because she basically pushed me into doing a course that I couldn’t afford (money was one of the issues) and I feel she took advantage of me at a point where I was emotional fragile. I made the mistake of believing that this person actually cared for my well-being. However, it was all about making the sale as I discovered later. I realize now how effective a marketing technique this is.

    Having said all that. I really want to learn more of the tools and techniques that are taught. I really really wish I could find someone who went through it but has divorced themselves from the organization. It would be cool if there was an organization like this that wasn’t focussed so heavily on money.

    I don’t feel like it’s a cult. Everybody leads their normal lives in Avatar and the tools, as far as I could see, are just designed to improve motivation etc. What it is, is a business. It’s a Multi level marketing business. They get people in, coach them up, get them to take these overpriced courses which will eventually lead to courses that teach you how to recruit others. I’m sure there would be some sort commission system where your mentor’s mentor’s mentor gets a cut. Ummmm…. yeah very aggressive in their selling of the courses. That’s all I will say about that.

  77. Thanks for your comment, A Guy.

    A couple of points. Sure, you go got something out of Avatar and continue to use their “tools” – why wouldn’t you? Like many such organisations and self-help gurus, they have taken NLP and re-branded it, adding their own terminology and origin myths. Par for the course. Aspects of NLP are helpful once you understand their practical application.

    And yes, Avatar has something in common with MLM organisations. That doesn’t mean it’s not a cult. MLM companies and organisations like Avatar use a cultist modus operandi.

    See how many boxes you tick:
    * specialist terminology
    * warnings about ‘dreamstealers’ who might undermine your belief in the system
    * a power structure comprising a head ‘guru’ and charismatic subordinate leadership who promise that all you have to do to achieve virtually unlimited success (this being adaptable to suit almost any personal vision of what that means) is stay ‘coachable’ – which translates to staying in the organization and doing what you’re told (including working for them voluntarily and recruiting).
    * a promise of ever-increasing FUTURE benefits, which come at an ever-increasing price

    That’s off the top of my head. There are doubtless many more.

    As for your claim that ‘everyone leads their normal lives’: get off the grass!

    Once you are immersed in any of these groups you start to become disconnected from your previous reality, as well as friends and family (unless, of course, they are recruited). Anyone who has made the mistake of hanging in too long at an MLM company or ‘personal development’ organization like Avatar knows that.

    Here’s a tip. You can have all the tools of NLP without the cultist bullshit and impositions that come with it – and far cheaper – from a competent shrink or counsellor. Return to Avatar for these tools and you’re a gullible fool, or already brainwashed (it takes time and distance to recognise the latter state).

    Spoken in earnest from one who’s been there and done that – twice. My brand of poison was not Avatar, but what’s in a label?

    Oh, and I still use some of the tools, too. NLP is valid and can be helpful. It’s in the re-branding and plagiarising by cultist organisations where the devil hides (and yes, I’m speaking metaphorically!).

  78. Thanks for you advice Rolan,

    Yeah, I would never go back to Avatar. It just turned out to be a very very bitter experience.
    I guess I really see the value of doing things in a workshop type session, but as you suggest this need not be through organizations like Avatar.

    NLP sounds interesting and I will look into that further.

    Well it might be a bit cult-like based on the above outline. I guess I have always thought of cults as being more extreme like the ones that involve mass suicide (lol). But I guess there are many gradients.

    My cousin did the Landmark course and kind of walked away with the same bad taste in his mouth while still enjoying some of the methods and techniques used.

    Yeah, I am definitely more in favor of stuff like that being open to the public and shared in open forums rather than being made all secretive and stuff.


  79. A Guy NLP is a fantastic tool for learning how people process and consquently how to help people. problem is once your skilled you also have a resource which could be used for the wrong reasons should you choose too. so training i have done in australia with really good trainers teacher ecology 1st and foremost. however we hear too often of rogue trainers especially in the US who use it for manipulation skills. so really it depends where you come from. if you look for a trainer from INLPTA then you should be safe. i had a keen interest in learning NLP after doing several anthony robbins trainings many years ago and then doing a course with his bob bays called NAC. it was based on NLP but robbins being who he is wanted to be the guru and wanted to rebrand his stuff. funny enough robbins never even finished NLP. and offcourse in the trainings there are so many levels……well basically Practioner and then Master practioner then trainer and then master trainer. to get to master prac and be really skillful is pretty difficult. in my case i think i did it several times yet never went on to do trainer.
    but again you need to be careful with some tools because you can mess with people if not right.
    so i guess ultimately always check who your trainers are and why you should learn from them. what do they want from you? (money, the next course, to buy their books and tapes???) so then decide when at trainings…..do you pay attention to the singer or the song?

  80. It’s been awhile….interesting to read that people are still having similar reactions to avatar..I recently met up with someone who is still very caught up in the organisation and the echo of their mind manipulation was very evident in her conversation..this person kept saying she just has to do more work on herself, so she could come from the Heart space… it is to manipulate people emotionally through guilt, it’s quite a dated tool, obviously still very successful…we create our experiences…through love or fear..and fear is a distortion of love…avatar is about cleaning up mass conscioussness…pretty clever..why on earth do you want to tap into that!!!! because it can fund their work to infinitum…endless vortex of crap…
    well everyone is free to experience their human potential any way they choose…I choose for my Highest Good and that is for the Highest Good for our planet Earth and the sustenance of all Life on this amazing Planet….

  81. i just got done with the first three courses and i loved them. ive always been the kind of guy that did not buy anything anyone is selling ( e.g. religions ect.) i had a hard time letting some defenses down to do the work but i feel much better now. In my experience there where so many teachers there, and staying at the same hotel as the rest of us, i dont see how they could charge less for the course and still make it feasible. i had a great time, made some good friends and learned alot. everyone takes what they want out of this kind of thing. of course there is pressure to go on to the next course is pretty annoying and i expressed that.
    its traumatic confronting your – self, and i see that alot of folks dont get much but an addiction out of it. I did notice alot of nay-sayers said that they had similar experiences with other groups. is there something in these classes you keep trying to get a fix of? unravel that before you go to another one.

  82. My wife has done all courses except Wizards which I don’t seem to be able to convince her otherwise. Certainly Avatar uses cult techniques to manipulate people such as love bombing, secret documentation and its own language etc to get people on courses. The ‘Feel it’ exercises puts people in a state of mind that leaves them open to suggestion and manipulation. It’s the loss of personal identity that I find the most difficult and annoying to deal with everything she says or does when in her Avatar frame of mind has the same rhetoric as the next Avatar person you meet. This isn’t all the time as it’s too hard for her to sustain, she thinks therefore she must do more work but really it’s her low self esteem that the organisation plays on and that keeps her going back and reliant on the Avatar tools.
    They are not really creating realities but fantasies, not one of her realities in her list of primaries have been realised. I am not being derogatory when I say fantasies as in a fantasy the person actually believes in what they are doing or thinking. I liken it to the kid’s movie Toy Story where Buzz Lightyear thinks he is not a toy but a Space Ranger protecting the Galaxy along with the other entire Buzz toys i.e. one single identity. Often I feel like Woody the cowboy doll frustrated in trying to convince Buzz he is a toy and not a Space Ranger. Actually in Toy Story 2 when Buzz rescues Woody and explains to Woody that it’s the love of Andy and the other toys that is important that Buzz shows that he is an enlightened being.
    I think the Avatar tools are helpful but really just simple meditation tools. Harry Palmers lectures and writings are poorly interpreted Eastern and Western philosophies. He has a poor understanding of science, Christianity and Eastern philosophy and often misquotes people. Avatar is the Mc Donald’s of enlightenment giving middle class morons a quick belief that after a few weeks on course they are an enlightened being. Basically its a few simple meditation techniques that can be discovered easily on a personal journey but the people who do Avatar need that fast food answer too lazy to find or research for themselves. They create fantasies for themselves to make their empty lives more believable.

  83. I find it somehwat hypocritical for Harry Palmer to extoll students to prevent global warming by making more friends, and therefore, sharing resources, when his organisation promotes a huge increase in people’s carbon footpring by flying round the world to attend courses?!! Students, masters and qualified masters take multiple flights every year. EM

  84. What you have to realise is that an “Enlightened Planetary Civilization” is unobtainable. It is a cult technique to keep the plebs working for an unachievable goal. It’s up there with beauty pageant “World Peace”. The lodge has several levels that no one reaches same as scientology OT’s.
    Harry doesn’t care about global warming or making more friends it’s all about recruiting and filling his coffers.

  85. I read in an earlier post someone likened some of the Avatar techniques similar to cognitive behaviour therapy. I can’t see the similarity there. Cognitive has something to do with the thinking mind. Avatar is teaching magical thinking … to declare something means you are creating it in reality. That ideology bypasses the ability to make decisions based upon looking at the pros and cons. In the magical thinking domain, you create your own reality – and if it doesn’t turn out right, guess who created that. CBT has an end point usually less than 10 sessions with a real therapist, Avatar has no end point. Magical thinking is in the realm of Santa Claus and the Easter bunny it requires the help and support of those around you. Steve Waugh used to have a lucky red handkerchief in his pocket when he went out bat, if he made a century the handkerchief proved itself if he made a duck he never blamed it – that’s magical thinking you attribute success to it but not failures the failures are yours and of course you must therefore do more exercises…

  86. Dear all,
    I was about to remarry my ex hubby who is a devoted avatar. I refused to be part of it since I saw him changing from a person who has empathy into a self-centre one. He insisted for me to take the intro to avatar course, and on the 1st day, I was told that I should join the course in sydney for better understanding ( I did my intro in taiwan and I am not a native speaker). In the next few days I was constantly being pressurized to go to sydney, and finally we both went.

    The day we arrived, the master told us that we should live in separate rooms, she said its better for our own self development.I refused to cooperate and she wasnt happy. During lunch time, wasnt allowed to take lunch together with the avatar masters ( including my ex, he is a master).

    On the 2nd day, my ex was disappeared for few hours, found out that he was practicing with one fellow student (female) inside hotel room with the door closed. It repeated the next day and lasted till after midnight. He shows no respect nor trying to explain what they were doing, he said he would explain once I am on that level. I called the girl and she said she owed me no apology since my ex agreed to it. what an attitude. isnt it they supposed to practice compassion among its own members?

    To cut my story short, I insisted to stop doing the course and went home. The next few days, the avatar masters kept on calling me to continue the course. I told them I have no money, they asked me to borrow money from my ex. I told them no. since then they stop calling and I never heard from them again.

    This situation creates strained in my relationship with my ex, I remind him that avatar is not right for us. He didnt listen and decided to cancel our wedding plan. Since then, he is distant and I believe the avatarian told him to disconnect with me cause I am not one of them.

    To this days, I simply cant understand how much influence they have on my ex. I’ve heard lots of stories about broken relationship and destroyed marriages due to avatar. I just didnt know that this would happened to me as well.

    I might lose my ex and our future together, but thank God, that I am not losing myself to the avatar.

  87. Thanks for your comment, Faith, and my apologies for taking so long to respond.

    It’s pretty common, I think, for intense self-development courses to place pressure on relationships. That’s scary, but is not always a bad thing, I guess – depending on the relationship!

    It's one thing for people to realise during periods of intense self-investigation that they want to change aspects of their lives for something they believe will be more fulfilling, but it's quite another when the agenda of the self-development group is to further its own interests by alienating its clientele from outside parties that might undermine its authority and power. Par for the course, unfortunately, with groups like Avatar.

    As with any dysfunctional organisation, they survive by insisting on the infallibility of their views and demonising anyone outside the group that represents a challenge to those views. Theirs is a simple, black and white world. Your ex is white, you're black.

    Good on you for sticking to your values and resisting these arseholes. I fear your ex is now one of them. He has made his choice (or thinks he has). You have made yours. No prizes for guessing whose choice I think is the right one.

    I respect you for your strength and integrity. All the best to you.


  88. Hello Rolan old chap
    I’ve heard that a number of people have had psychotic breaks either on the Avatar course or in the weeks following the course. I’d like to find out if this is true or not. Have you heard any reports of this?
    Forgive me old chap haven’t read the entire blog above. Too many children of Estro ranting for my taste, besides my eyesite’s buggered and the type is too small.
    Toodle pip!

  89. Faith,

    Delayed response again – and again, my apologies.

    Antidote? Hmm, well, I’m not the one to ask, but I’m sure it ain’t as simple as injecting a snakebite victim with an appropriate antivenene! And it’s your ex’s choice as to whether to keep ‘doing Avatar’ or return to planet earth, surely? If I were you, I’d be asking myself why I’m wasting time and emotional energy on his situation, and what is preventing me from letting go of him. But I’m not you. Your call, I’m afraid.


  90. Top of the evening to you, Doctor. One can’t pretend to know what one does not, so can’t be of assistance to you on this occasion. One identifies with your good self, though, what with the failing eyes and this damned ever-shrinking font. Damn Estro, damn ageing, bugger the whole damn lot, what?

    Good-oh…one must be off. Cheerio then.

  91. Hi all …
    I encountered an Avatar convert on an online dating site. After a week of online chatting I decided to listen to my gut feeling and ‘blocked’ further correspondence. I received a very long and manipulative sms text which i ignored. Honestly, I don’t have time

  92. Hey Stephanie

    Once you are part of the Avatar cult you will be desperate to share your enlightened state with others. The only way to do that is look for people (prospects) to share the “love” with. Maybe this person was using a dating site as a way of generating prosects instead of actually looking for love. Creepy!
    I am not surprised that they sent you the manipulative text. As soon as you show a hint of interest they will see it as their role to support you by whatever means to be on the next Avatar course. After all your enlightenment is worth sacrificing everything for isnt it? Your job, your relationships, your family, friends and loved ones are all just secondaries that get in the way of your primary goal of becoming enlightened. Increase your mortgage, borrow money from a loan shark if you need to, dump your partner who questions the wisdom of any of these ideas but make sure you are on that next course.
    Glad to hear you trusted your gut feel otherwise you may have needed a session with “The Doctor”

  93. Dr. Strangelove,

    were u an avatar?
    What u said is exactly true.
    They’ve become a missionary to save the world, a wolf in a saint’ clothes.
    If u wanna share something, pls email me at:
    [email protected]

  94. Dear Faith,

    Yes alas I once was an Avatar, Master and Wizard. I explored the course because I wanted to understand the impact my beliefs were having on the way I was experiencing life. Following the course I made some significant changes in my life and many of them were positive. I mainly focused on healing broken relationships etc and used the tools to breakdown my resistance to saying sorry and making amends for things I had done in the past to hurt others. The good news was the course gave me some tools to help with this. All of the useful tools are in the book Resurfacing which although filled with Science Fiction mumbo jumbo treats like the Translarian epliogue from it’s author, has some really good exercises to do. The downside is that some of the exercises which occur on the “confidential” Sections 2 and Sections 3 of the Avatar course are possibly very damaging.

    Avatar bashers on the web will fill you with all sorts of fanciful stories about what they are. Don’t pay any attention its not worth worrying about.

    If however you are concerned, things to watch out for are:
    the “feel it” exercises which when done properly have you feeling really in tune with all that is. Doesn’t sound so bad does it? However to achieve the result you need to turn off your thoughts and just feel. It does feel great but it has also switched off your ability for critical reasoning and in this state you are extremely vulnerable to suggestion. That would be a great time to talk to you about signing up for section three (the most expensive component of the Avatar course if you haven’t already done so).
    The Source List of section three is an amazing experience. It’s all about creating a reality and to get you back to being source of your life. The exercise when done properly will have you believing without doubt things like “I am happy to be me” etc. Again its a great experience but needs to be viewed with some caution. Obviously really believing that you are happy to be you requires that you handle all the things especially the feelings in your life that get stirred up by that statement. For example if you were sexually abused as a child its likely that the statement “I am happy to be me” will trigger many thoughts and feelings that will let you know that you are really not happy to be you at this moment in time. It is an incredibly powerful and potentially dangerous process as you convince your mind that you are happy to be you with no doubts whatsoever. Some critics have compered the process to self hypnosis and although Avatar Masters and Wizards would argue the technicalities with you, the effect is similar and probably deeper and longer lasting. Imagine that I can present myself with an idea that no matter how totally implausible the idea is I will get to believe it without any doubts. To be fair this can be extremely useful when you want to do something like overcome your feelings of being a loser because you have, no job, no money etc. All your evidence will suggest that, yes, in fact you are a loser. That “loser” idea is not really that useful to be carrying around when you are at a job interview and every particle of your being is screaming at you the message “Yes I am a loser”. What you really want to be, is confident that you can do the job and yes they should hire you and not only that bu you deserve it! Do you see the dilemma developing here? Avatar tools can be used to great effect and be very helpful. But what about the downside? Why is it that more an more people are having memory problems, periods of confusion, some significant personality changes that may not be that nice? Well the answer is that we don’t know and are unlikely to until people start speaking out. Harry Palmer the worlds most successful multi level marketer of enlightenment is going to see any request to study the possible negative effects of his exercises on human consciousness as a lack of faith, and a threat to his organisation. Imagine if a group could bring a class action suit against him for proven damage to the human mind that the Avatar tools and processes could cause.

    On the Reality Creation List you will create and believe without doubt the reality that “Everything I see is illusion” and “There is no limit to what I am willing to experience” Personally, I would sign you up for the Wizards course just after that one. Anyway I digress, On section three of the Avatar Course is a process dressed up to look like a neat way to see if you have handled your own judgments (positive or negative) about anything in your life that you can possibly put your attention on. The effect is amazing. judgments about your self image, that gnarly relative that really pisses you off etc, all slip away so that you can comfortably place your attention on anything and have “no response” to it. You really do feel free of life’s abrasions when this occurs. It’s like “Hey nothing bothers me. Cool” Again there is a downside. After completing this exercise you will be free to view any suggestion you are presented with with no judgment. It might be an idea like “Steal from your mother, she’s rich and the old girl owes you big time anyway” hmmmmnnn interesting idea…. yep no response. It probably wont be an idea that harmless. It will be something much more dangerous like “Hey you should sign up for the Masters Course you’ll really get some great things out of it!” You’ll go “Ok cool where’s the registration form, and a group of Avatar Masters will have tears in their eyes as another amazing being heads along the path to enlightment and creating an enlightened planetary civilisation. Oh Thank you Harry (All gratitude must flow to Harry or you will end up having to confess that later on an Avatar Integrity Course).

    At the end of the course when the last exercise you do has left you feeling blissed and euphoric, you’ll be quietly slipped your form to sign that says you are totally happy with the course and its results. It’s a good idea as we don’t want those pesky troublesome students who made the masters work really hard asking for a refund later when some crap has hit the whirly blades now do we?

    Beware of the Masters course for the simple reason that you will only get a couple of new tools and processes to use (maybe you will feel that the $3500 you pay for them is good value. I did at the time but in hindsight it was more about getting me hooked into delivering the course and keeping the upline lubricated with plenty of cash. Yep I was hooked!). Do you really want to be a full time Avatar Master? If so do the course as you will need the mindset you’ll leave the course with to be successful.

    If you want to do Wizards you’ll have to do the Masters course as a pre-requisite. The Wizards Course is the most fun I have had with my clothes on. It’s like the Disney World of Human consciousness and is held in Orlando too. Ah the irony! Again playing with the tools and processes is fun and you will have a mental and emotional roller coaster experience. The down side again is the dark side of what goes wrong for people on these courses. Some go home damaged and emotionally unstable others don’t make it home straight away as they get hospitalised during the course. You wont hear from too many of these people the as the shame of spending $7500 US and coming home with not all the lights on in tanning bed can be a pretty powerful reason to keep quiet. I know Avatar Masters who have dropped off the radar, got stuck in a “creation” become unstable etc who are to scared to speak up as it shows them as being weak failures who just didn’t have what it takes to control their mind.

    Most Avatar Masters you will meet are really nice people. They have a genuine desire to help others and show compassion for the world. What they have missed is that they are now part of an organisation that seems really clean and virtuous, especially when you view it from the trusted inner ranks. The organisation is so clever and powerful in its management of its commission only sales network that most masters don’t view themselves as salespeople. Their leaders are mostly nice people who are not perfect and handling their own crap along the way, which is a nice change as it makes them seem more human but even they don’t realise that they are part of a successful and powerful money making cult. One of the really powerful beliefs that keeps Harry’s business alive is that Avatar is NOT a cult.
    I fully believe that many of the Stars Edge Trainers (the elite 20 or so from the Avatar network of over 100,000 Avatar graduates and probably 5000 active masters) don’t realise that they are cult leaders. Wow what an amazing creation!
    Don’t waste time listening to Avatar bashers like Eldon Braun or others, the views I have read from them are very biased and not very accurate.

    Finally take care not to sucked in to believing Avatar as being more or even less than it really is.

    Take care all,
    The Doctor.

  95. Hi Faith,
    Sounds like you are still trying to save your ex from this lunacy, believe me you won’t. People that are attracted to this sort of thing will always be. At some low point in our life we are all vulnerable to these groups such as a relationship break up, death in the family, job loss etc and that’s when these leeches pounce. I thought after my wife had completed section 2 and 3 she understood how these organisations worked. But after her Father died these misguided fools convinced her that she needed to do Masters and the rollercoaster has began again. (A good book that’s a bit dated and now out of print but available http://www.louisesamways.com.au/dangerouspersuaders.html )
    According to the research the problem with Cults like any addiction is that the person has to decide to leave them for themselves, if you try and force them out they will return at low points in their lives, so you have to decide if you want to live with this crap popping up now and again up forever? Don’t focus too much on it being a Cult but rather what effect it is having on the person and if how they are behaving is acceptable for you to live with, this can be a big decision.
    The best advice I can give is not to attack the tools which seem useful and can be obtained from other cheaper sources and are really no more than a mix of NLP and meditation etc. Also don’t attack or ridicule the person for being dumb or stupid (this is hard to do) it’s not their fault they are in the throws of a powerful organisation that is too big for you to combat. What you should do is look for holes in how the organisation operates. Its lack of morality, the secrecy, the crazy confusing terminology, signing disclosure statements etc really aren’t part of enlightenment. Don’t accept that you have to do the course to understand. Head for the top of the tree look at Harry’s past self admitted drug use, his history with scientology, law suits, how they hunt down and close negative web sites, his lying about his psychology qualifications, 8 eight days in a floatation tank (his skin would have peeled off), his talk to the galactic confederation. Harry apologises for some of these indiscretions on course and they all forgive him, they also do a lot of work on pushing past loved ones resistance so be careful they convince them that your are trying to control them and that they are in charge of there own life they are confusing control with care. If your ex wants enlightenment there are safer more acceptable belief systems available.
    These groups like most belief systems have to deny science and research to maintain the conviction of there followers, but science changes it’s views based on observations so is more open minded and that is what you are trying to achieve with enlightenment, really enlightenment according to Buddha is just happiness .
    Most thought reform consultants indicate all you can do if you want to hang in there is love them and not to be critical as you only push them towards the group, slowly question there beliefs and behaviours to what is acceptable. Don’t think it is hopeless most people hang around in these groups for 3-5 years (some longer, it’s a question of how long you can hang around) but eventually the work they have to do becomes too overwhelming or ridiculous but by the organisation has already got there piece of meat out of them.
    Believe me you honestly feel helpless and in a state of ‘I can’t believe this is happening to me and my family’ but plod along if you wish and don’t let the organisation destroy your life as well.


  96. Dear Dr. Strangelove and Observer,

    Many thanks for the valuable input and the time that you both have put in for all of us.

    Yes its true that I’m concerned with my ex situation, which I think he’s in a delusional state and his low self esteem, longing for forgivess on his past actions, that caused his devotion to the Avatar.

    Once I told him for the no-contact rule between us, hoping that with me out of the picture he will then realize what he’s missing. But I was wrong. He’s getting deeper and actively involved with the group, yet seems would like to tag me along by maintaining contact.

    I have to say that now he seems to be happy and in control of his life, compared to few yrs ago. He found a new partner from the group. If someone who’s not so closed to him sees this improvements, whatever I said might caused others to think that I am jealous and unhappy with his new situation.

    For someone who has stand by him for almost 7 yrs, I know what impact or result that Avatar has brought into his life. I have moved on with my life and I never wish for us to be together again. Its his well being and sanity that I’m concerning about.

    Right now, he’s like coming into the world who can accept him for who he is, and he felt that Avatar has saved him so he should do the same to others. It has becoming his mission to save the world. And for him, my thinking is wrong cause I never come to agree with him on this.

    Observer, I will try to find the book you’ve recommend, hopefully my country have one.Question, does your wife still with the Avatar?

    Dr. Strangelove, what’ve caused you lo leave the Avatar?

    Again, Thank you so much to both of your inputs. Thank you for sharing.

  97. Hi Faith,

    You can click on the link to Dangerous Persuaders in the message it is available in PDF format.


  98. Hi Faith
    Treat my response with the ridicule it deserves. “I haven’t left Avatar, in fact I’m still involved as I continue to gather material for my book”.

    In actual fact I cant be bothered writing a book it would give Avatar more attention than it deserves. If one single person who became inadvertently interested as a result of my expose who then joined the cult is a price I’m not willing to pay for humanities sake. However if they did the course weren’t harmed in anyway and moved on without joining the “network” then maybe that would be OK.

    An Avatar saying is “What ever you place your attention on becomes more real” or something similiar. Lets not make it so big and nasty in our minds that we become like those conspiracy nutters. A good quote from an old TV program on Fashion Models was “Hey girls, Let’s not over think this!”
    At some stage the number of people who have been harmed in some way will gain critical mass and the tipping point may be reached where US authorities decide to intervene and put a halt to some of their more dubious practices. We do risk throwing the baby out with the bath water but I reckon all the good bits (some of the crazy shit too) are in the Resurfacing Course which is public domain so the more harmful or dubious practices are not likely to be in there are they. My experience is that apart from a few individuals most Avatar Masters are extremely well meaning genuinely caring and misguided and manipulated rather than malicious. Obviously with over 100,000 graduates there’s bound to be a few nasty nutters involved but hey that probably reflects the 1% fruitcake slice of the population anyway, and has little to do with Avatar itself. One of the coolest guys I know is an Avatar Master from Australia and even outside of the Avatar network I’d be proud to have him as a friend.

    Good Luck Faith. Let him go and move on or unfortunately you’ll be keeping an idea alive that seems to only cause you pain.
    May you be happy and well.

    Hey Rolan
    Is my identity secure? I’d hate to lose my undercover status. Just kidding ……

    The Doctor prescribes a dose of honest self reflection and the willingness to be wrong, you’ll sleep like baby. Remember that we not only have the capacity to be fully good but also to be fully bad. It all depends on what you practice. Feed the good side.

    Night all. Toodle pip.

  99. I’ve been reading a few anti- avatar websites and articles and although this isn’t the most accurate and you can hear the frustration… you still pretty much get the message across.

    And trust me, Avatar gets me more than frustrated, my Dad got into it from his new girlfriend and wasted thousands of his hard earned cash on this money hungry cult. Especially when we have never been wealthy in the first place. And he has always been a intelligent man, he is a paramedic with three kids. But Avatar made one of them loose all respect for him.

  100. Thanks for your comment Miss B, but tell me – what’s not accurate?

    I thoroughly researched the facts before writing the post, and neither good ol’ Harry nor the pro-Avatar crew who have responded with comments have challenged the actual content. If there were any inaccuracies, surely they would have piped up?

    If you’re going to make comments like that, it’s only fair that you back them up with some elaboration. Over to you…

  101. Hi there
    I was discussing the problem of mental instability caused by these large group awareness training exercises like Avatar with one of my psychiatrist aquaintances.
    His suggestion was that any potential student considering a course like Avatar should put a clause in the contract for the course to the effect of “The course provider shall cover the costs of any medical treatment required following the course due to any treatment required in the area of mental health”
    If you have Mental Health issues you shouldn’t be on a course run by well meaning but untrained people. If you don’t have any mental health issues then any subsequent issues that appear after the course should be funded by the organisation that caused the problems. It’s a harsh view but if you read the Dangerous Persauders material mentioned in this blog you will see that some of the techniques used on these courses appear in courses like Avatar and should be viewed with extreme caution.
    Medical professionals who fiddle with peoples heads have to be trained and regulated to protect their patients. Why don’t these barely trained well wishers?
    Take care all.

  102. Hmmm… Mr. Rolan Stein, I can’t help but detect a sense of bitterness and angst in your writing. This is just an intuitive observation, thats all. I’m neither supporting nor condemning this avatar stuff — I don’t particularly care. I’m only sharing as a passing stranger what I sensed about you. All the best 🙂

  103. Now, Passing Stranger, let’s consider this… you don’t particularly care about a cult that some believe fucks up people’s lives – and charges them a shitload in the process – but you do care enough to share your observation that there’s a ‘sense of bitterness and angst’ in my writing.

    Well, bud, what’s your point in stating the bleeding obvious? There are many facets to my personality, as with all people, and of course they’re not all happy clappy positives. And of course, aspects of my personality that are the polar opposites of happy and clappy are gonna manifest in my writing when I’m attacking a mob I don’t respect and who, in my view, do a lot of damage to unwary, vulnerable folk.


    The ones you need to worry about are those who do not express themselves, who sit around grinning inanely and maintaining a resolutely polite facade while stoically containing a volcano inside. They’re the ones who grab something lethal when it all finally boils over, paying out on any poor soul who happens to be in their orbit. Preferable to channel yer angst into a blog post, directing it at a worthy target – dontcha think?

    Oh, BTW, I deleted your business website link, just in case your main purpose in posting was self-promotional.

    Have a naice day now…

  104. Hmmm… Intuitive huh given yourself away there it’s a favorite term these special individuals all use. I can’t believe how much work you all do on personal integrity but still lack honesty. More drills for you my friend.

  105. Sadly after a couple of weeks of love bombing by these lovely sentiment beings my wife is off to the pro course at the end of the week.

  106. I have a friend who left her boyfriend that she loves very much because he was not an Avatar. WTF?

  107. Dear Observer
    My Condolences on your wife going to “Pro” Love bombing is not a term or a concept that Avatar Masters use or are familiar with. However if your wife showed the slightest bit of “inspiration” about attending the Pro course they would have leapt into gear and supported her night and day to handle any secondary that would have her not achieve her Primary to be at the Pro Course. They would have been on tap 24 hours per day supporting her inspiration to be there and they would help her deal with any secondary like not having the money, or an un-supportive partner etc until she had paid for the course and the plane tickets and the accommodation and actually got to the airport and hopped on the plane. I’m afraid her relationship with you will be seen as nothing but a nuisance (because you are not supporting her) and she will be encouraged to show up for her life and if that means dumping you along the way that will be encouraged (as long as she first originates that she is thinking of dumping you). They are generally not stupid enough to come right out and say something like that but the moment that she hints that you are a problem they’ll support the crap out of her to stay on “the path”
    Sorry to be the bearer of ill tidings old boy but do steel yourself for what you may encounter on her return.
    My thoughts are with you.

  108. Thanks Doc,
    Love bombing is a generic term that is a cult technique not dissimilar to what you described, basically multiple calls and callers showing overwhelming love and support 24/7 leading up to course time. It will be interesting to see what happens when my wife returns. It is confusing for her as she is aware that I support her and the goals she is trying to achieve but I do not support the organisation or their immoral techniques. Even though she was already a good person they have convinced her she needs them to be a kinder more caring person not towards family so much but everyone on the planet (especially those that fit the criteria to recruit). So if she leaves me it will vindicate my view that organisation is controlling her, I often see her struggle with her emotions but the hold they have on her is sad and at times frightening.

  109. Dear Observer
    It seems like you have your head well and truly screwed on old chap. It must be tough having a loved one who is under the influence of such a group.
    Chin up old boy. Common sense will keep you sane and one day your wife will definitely wake up and see that she was just a few more dollars in Harry’s multi-level enlightenment project. Harry’s EPC really stands for “Every Pound Counts”.
    Toodle Pip.

  110. My wife has just returned from doing the Pro course and as predicted she has lost sight of her own personal goals for doing Avatar and now is caught up in the goals of the organisation under the primary of ‘service to others’ which basically means go out and recruit. I have my suspicions that she will now be attending another course that is aimed ‘service to others’ but really is teaching her how to recruit and not care about making a bigger fool of herself to her family, friends or strangers. She now also believes in the power of the so called collective consciousness which in itself is nice but just part of the hangover of doing large group awareness training. I think before they recruit someone, the poor unsuspecting soul should be informed that any commitments they may have made to their family and people that really care about them, that commitments either emotional or financial will no longer matter and all that is important is their commitment to Avatar and an EPC. It sickens me to think honest caring people with real goals of improving themselves are manipulated to into becoming foot soldiers for this organisation that cashes in on the beliefs they instil in their victims.

  111. Sorry to hear the news good sir. It’s hard not to get inspired when you are part of a large group with a supposedly noble cause. The enthusiasm will wear off soon though as she will only be supported if she is signed up for the next course (Wizards no doubt) or is trying to “create” students.
    I feel for you old chap. Its hard to see people with good intentions throwing away their lives to a multi-level enlightenment peddling business dressed up in sheep’s clothing.

  112. Hey Do It! – erm, re-read my post. Re-read this thread. Then re-read your comment.

    Fuck me – do you need to stick your hand in a meat grinder before you can comment on it not being a good idea? Eh?

  113. Do It!:
    I think Rolan makes the point very clear regarding the meat grinder, to me it’s more like parachuting without a parachute the free fall would be fun the consequences of the landing not so good but maybe you need to refer to your masters handbook where HP talks about parachuting it’s a no brainer remember, HP says you need to work at it and learn how to do it and that’s what this blog is all about gathering information for those unaware of the hidden agenda of stars edge.
    I don’t have to do the course to comment on the profound effects Avatar has had on my wife, she has become conceited and selfish, the irony is that she has become the opposite of what she thinks she is a beautiful bit of brainwashing there my friend.
    Someone recently commented to me that the human capacity for self deception is truly amazing.

  114. Bloody hell! I can’t believe a) how long this thread has lasted, and b) that I have read most of the posts (although I gave up on the avarice-atar apologists after a while).
    I thought this thread would be about the movie (a much more benign phenomenon than the crap herein espoused by these ego-sublimating judgement-avoiding idiots)!
    There, I got that out.
    A bunch of my friends spent many hours and days at a local Tibetan Buddhist centre, particularly when a very charismatic Rinpoche was in town. They always came home positively levitating, having been guided to a deep level of meditative quiet. Then Rinpoche went back up the mountain, or diving with whale sharks or whatever he did, and these people, with limited skills, often floundered as they failed to reach the heights they had experienced. Depression arose as they desperately meditated themselves into a panic. On one occasion, a woman I know asked me and some other friends to host her young daughter’s birthday party at the last minute, because she had just heard that Rinpoche was in town and she obviously needed a fix.
    Now I have no problem with Buddhism, in fact I align myself more with this contemplative, self-responsible system than any religion, as I have no problem with any group or organisation that espouses the wish to help their fellows. However, I get EXTREMELY disappointed when people who are clearly alive, and therefore must have something approaching a brain, some judgement, and an intact ego (“I can think and I will”) give their personal power to some club while simultaneously ignoring what to me are glaringly obvious faults, like hey, these guys charge money for “the truth” even at the expense (ha!) of one’s family or financial situation, or these guys deal mental drugs without concern for their addictive nature or for the consequences of the habit, or that one’s personal happiness is more important than that of one’s family, neighbours or the planet. At least Buddhism proclaims that all is done to benefit all sentient beings.
    Sometimes the seeker/student/devotee is at fault, but beyond restating that I believe we all need to not suspend our very basic bullshitmeters, I believe that a master is responsible to his slave, a teacher to her student.
    If so many people are getting hurt, something is wrong with the medicine.

  115. Someone recently commented to me that the human capacity for self deception is truly amazing.

    That it is, Observer. That it truly is. Thanks for your ongoing contribution to the thread.


    Excellent observations that sum up the whole sad story pretty bloody well.

  116. I have little bias either for or against Avatar, having never known anyone involved in it. I was curious to find this blog where people can share their experiences, including some quite distressing ones.

    However one thing that takes away from the worth of this page to me is Rolan’s total (?) bias against Avatar. It seems quite unacceptable to him that anyone has got something valuable out of it, according to their own measure. He also claims this is a place where people can freely share their opinions, ‘unlike within Avatar’, however that freedom to hold a different opinion is clearly something he himself struggles to allow here in others. The few people who spoke positively about Avatar he quickly labels as stooges, even suggesting they were all the same person using different aliases.

    Biased much?

    For me, this lack of balance detracts from the impact of this site, and possibly from what Rolan is trying to achieve. But what exactly is he trying to achieve here?

    I myself am interested in that loaded subject ‘truth’. For me, any approach to ‘truth’ is worthless without an honest investigation and acknowledgement of one’s own bias, and that, sadly, is something that Rolan has not yet done enough.

  117. Little bias for or against Avatar, huh, Norm old cock? Not how your post comes across.

    Now let’s see if we can work out your strategy here. Can’t mount a viable argument for or against Avatar, but can target the writer of the post that initiated the thread. So, discredit Rolan and you discredit the anti-Avatar content of the post and comments that follow?

    Nah. Not even a good try, bub. But never let it be said that I fling unsubstantiated jibes around. Read on, dear Norman…

    You claim that I have a “total bias” against Avatar. A bias is a warped perception arising out of personal prejudice, and without rational justification or reason. I don’t call it a bias when I have clearly set out my objections to this cult. I call that a stance backed by reasoning and evidence.

    If you want to invalidate my arguments, you need to speak directly to them and provide YOUR reasoning, and YOUR evidence for your opinion. It’s ineffective and mentally feeble to just pronounce me “biased” without backing up your claim. In fact, THAT’s bias! A classic instance of projection!

    Yeah, I suspect some of the pro-Avatar posts here are the work of stooges – look at the quality of those posts in terms of considered argument and evidential backup and I’d suggest my suspicions are hardly rash, reckless or without some foundation. More than can be said for your pissweak effort.

    Oh, and be careful not to make sweeping generalisations that do not hold up under scrutiny. I quote from your post: The few people who spoke positively about Avatar he quickly labels as stooges, even suggesting they were all the same person using different aliases. Hmmm, I labelled as stooges ALL commenters on this thread making positive comments about Avatar, you say? Re-read the thread, bozo. Not to put too fine a point on it, yer talkin’ shit. And this from someone who claims – rather pompously – to be interested in ‘truth’. How so, when you resort to fallacy and exaggeration in an attempt to discredit little moi? That’s not only dishonest – it’s hypocritical!

    I stand by my statement that I do not censor comment. As this thread amply demonstrates, all responders on this blog are free to express their view. That’s been my unwavering policy since I began blogging. How, then, am I guilty of your charge of “struggling” to allow freedom of opinion? Lots of comments here conflict directly with my opinion, but they’re still up here for all to see.

    I acknowledge that I am robust, at times rude even, in my responses to those whose views appear flawed or dishonest, but that doesn’t make me a dictator or censorious of those who hold opposing views. As Administrator of this blog site, I do have a moderation facility, but I use it only to filter out spam. Pray tell, then, how am I guilty of your charge of disallowing others the right to an expression of their opinions?

    Put up or shut up.

  118. Hi Norman,
    I’m not convinced you are telling us the truth about your interest in Avatar, when you say ‘acknowledgement of one’s own bias’ the terminology rings a familiar tone to how my wife speaks these days she’s always acknowledging something? Any way your truth is yours to deal with.
    My wife is certainly a nice Avatar especially to people she feels are vulnerable to recruit after all she has to be reatailable, I mean no one would listen to her if she was a complete wacko. There is a list of the types of people to go after in the workbooks, how are you going to enlighten a whole planet if you are only going after certain types of people let alone only those that can afford it. They are all nice and smiley to begin with the nicest people you’ll ever meet no judgement just accept you as you are and in a vulnerable state it is very welcoming. The insidious part comes further in the Journey into this large group awareness training program. Give everyone something nice to go away with at the start that way those not interested will go away saying wow no hard sell, seems harmless, but not all is revealed until you pay for and do more courses that become increasingly more expensive and then before you know your sucked in and your personal goals are lost and the organisations goal become yours which is to recruit new Avatars. Look at Kenja another scientology squirrel organisation, they start off as harmless clowning classes and before long all you want to do is recruit more people into it and adopt poor old Ken’s crazy beliefs. There are many posts from people that have done the Avatar course and are happy with the tools they received and got out, it has been my experience that the effects on my wife are fairly short lived and when the stuff doesn’t work it’s her fault more drills or courses to do.
    If you investigate ‘Large group awareness training’ you’ll see Avatar is listed as such on many websites. Avatar operates almost copy book to how LGAT works and the effects on my wife are also copy book. All research on LGAT for which there is a lot say the behavioural changes in a person last days to a few weeks but no long term behavioural changes are reported other than some psychotic episodes once they come down from the course high, but the changes noted after attending LGAT course are more apparent in peoples desire to begin recruiting for the organisation. What would be the point of that if you’re on a personal journey or path?

  119. Hi Observer
    I recently watched a TV program on KenJa. What amazed me that Ken and Jan came across like a couple like a couple of retards who found their own dribble enlightening. I can’t imagine what any sensible person would see in the rantings of a guy who’s clearly not the sharpest knife in the draw. I also can’t imagine turning up to a clowning evening and then devoting my life to such an obvious buffoon who clearly liked to liberate the women and young girls in the cult from their sexual fears. The poor chap really did quite a few people a favour by shooting himself in the head.
    Avatar is slightly more sophisticated. Harry while clearly from a different planet to the rest of us is quite an entertaining speaker once you get past his rather dorky demeanour. Some of his stuff does appeal to the intellect. With Avatar you won’t have to participate in any song and dance routines until the Pro course. I think there must be something about having to make a complete dick of yourself in front of others to get Avra’s approval that shuts down your critical reasoning, makes you open to suggestion, makes you feel vulnerable and also makes you more susceptible to disapproval from others. Yes Yes, I will conform so that you don’t disapprove of me anymore! Maybe Ken and Jan for all their appearance of stupidity did understand this. The similarity is a bit spooky.
    Although I consider myself of moderate intelligence I was fooled by Avatar and blissfully unaware of my “follower of the cult” status. The desire to improve and to have a lofty goal that gave me purpose obviously had me notice the ridiculous but not need to question it or do anything about it.
    I’d like to think though that I’d be immune to Ken and Jan’s rather low brow cheap knock off dribble.
    For all your wife’s shortcomings in getting involved with the Avatar cult I imagine being a totally stupid moron wasn’t one of them although now that she has been enlightened she may act like one from time to time.

    Toodle Pip.

  120. Hi Doc,

    Intellect has little to do with why people join these groups in fact most people that join cults are quite academic look at all the Doctors that are in the Brisbane Christian fellowship, (Google ‘The god of broken hearts’ and view the 4 corners report). I personally think it has more to do with where you sit on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs those at the top of the pyramid are after self actualisation and that what makes this dribble attractive to them.
    We can only hope that Harry follows Ken’s lead but I suppose his fate awaits him back on his home planet of Estro whenever he decides to return.

  121. Unfortunately I have got one of my friends into Avatar.
    I had a quick look to the book from HP and I only had to read about the flotation tank to realise what was all about.

    After this, I have tried to gather all the REAL info about Avatar and show it to her, but she does not care cause she just believes what she wants to…). She is a masters now and determined to do all the courses and make a living upon that. She has spent all her money now and thinks she will get it back whenever she gets students…

    The worst of all is that she thinks is helping other people 🙁

    There is nothing to do except keep promoting this site and the others like:



    Thank you Rolan for opening the topic, we need to uncover the sadest true and really help people’s lives.

  122. Hi Nicky,
    It is truly unfortunate about your friend I have been living with my wife’s delusion for a while now. You get cornered at every turn when something good happens it’s because of Avatar when there is something bad it’s someone else’s fault (usually mine, so nothings changed) but never that the bullshit doesn’t really work. I see a few minor differences usually after a course but they only last a week or two and then back to her old self, it’s such a rollercoaster of behaviours, also the changes in behaviour are fairly selective so nicer to friends and strangers that she may be able to recruit but behaviour towards family is the same especially those that won’t buy into this crap. I must admit it is quite funny when she looks into the kids eyes and thinks she is connecting with them (I always think of Kath and Kim “Look at me”), when she looks into my eyes like we are connecting I have to hold back my laughter (she almost goes cross eyed). The other night she spent hours re-reading her Avatar books and looked so intent in what she was doing that I had to go to bed to stop laughing out loud. The language in the Avatar material is extremely confusing, the use of language is a powerful cult technique as members don’t want to admit they don’t understand it, rather they re-read it over and over again looking for some insight that is not there. I mean she struggles to help the kids put there LEGO together how she makes heads or tails of this shit is beyond me.
    I myself often wonder about the floatation tank HP talks about personally I think he must have spent the time playing battleships or with his rubber duckies for eight weeks. Apparently in 1988 HP set out ‘to explore many systems of beliefs, the psychedelic movement, Eastern philosophies, the hippie movement, Zen, modern psychology. He developed a particular technique (‘I create my experience according to what I believe’) born out of his so called experience in the sensory deprivation tank .It was at this time that the Avatar lessons appeared. “I observed my consciousness become defined starting from the void, advancing and ebbing like the tide, in this non-space ocean of inexpressible source consciousness. From this point of view, one can perceive or apprehend (i.e. to perceive without instructions) a thought form”. Avatar is a technique which fits in perfectly in New Age ideology – ‘you experience what you believe and not the opposite’ – or the ‘you create your own reality’ made popular by Ms. Jane Roberts and her conversations with a spirit called Seth that she encountered while using a Ouija board in 1972 . Therefore, to change one’s life, it is enough to change what one believes. Reality, which is only a belief itself, can thus be modified at will. HP’s basic thesis – that beliefs create a person’s reality as self-fulfilling prophesies – was one that had been expressed in many places prior from ‘The Vedas’ to ‘A Course in Miracles’ to information channelled through mediums from astral plane entities such as ‘Seth’ and ‘Bashar’. Scientologists are all familiar with the dictum: ‘you are totally responsible for the condition you are in’.
    The ‘Creation Handling’ procedure is the one part of Avatar initially considered to be unique until a graduate came across a description of a Tibetan meditation technique taught by Mr. Tarthang Tulku, a Tibetan lama who left the country after the Chinese invasion, and founded the ‘Nyingama Institute’ in Berkeley, California in 1969. His method for eliminating unwanted thought forms and their effects, as described in the book ‘Hidden Mind of Freedom’ published in 1981 is virtually the same as Mr. Harry Palmer’s ‘discovery’ in the float-tank in 1988.
    According to Tarthang Tulku ‘Working with thoughts by opening them as they arise can bring many pleasant feelings, which – without attachment – also become our meditation, we can even go into the thoughts that judge other thoughts, and, embracing this judging mind, become united with it. By relying on the light of awareness you can see that the difficulties you face are manifestations of your own concepts. Going deeply into your thoughts, you will see how you create your experience, how you alone are the judge who determines heaven and hell, good and bad. Whatever experience arises, stay with it, expand it, and heat it up. If you remain within the intense core of the experience, the meditator unites with thoughts and emotions, and everything dissolves. Then awareness grows powerful and one-pointed. As thoughts and emotions are increasingly included within this field of awareness, they become more useful. Instead of being a cause of frustration or confusion, they become agents of well-being’.
    I think you are better off spending $10 on the book Hidden Mind of Freedom than tens of thousands of dollars on the Avatar courses. Also look up Seth and Jane Roberts and you can get a much clearer understanding of creating your own realities. Basically this new age crap is becoming fairly dated and most of the Avatar material and lectures is unchanged and at least 20 years old, HP is obviously in his vault like Scrooge Mc Duck counting his money these days.
    In the end, it’s all about subjugating members’ individuality to achieve the desires of the leader that is to recruit members that simply fills the leader’s pockets with their hard-earned money. These MLM or commercial pyramid schemes and self-help seminars employ similar recruiting and indoctrinating techniques as destructive religious cults, targeting people with certain vulnerabilities and then playing on those vulnerabilities to keep them “in the fold.” The end result is a “convert” who will try to get all of his loved ones to buy into the same business deal that he is losing his life savings on, or keep signing up for an unending series of lectures, seminars and courses that promise psychological and spiritual healing but really only drain their bank account.
    Cults offers something attractive or desirable to the individual, and the individual decides to suspend normal critical judgment in this area in order to obtain the fulfilment of their desire. Because this process involves mutual and willing cooperation, and the victim views all decisions as their own, it is a more binding form of mind control that is harder to undo. They wanted to believe it, it fulfils a “need,” and it is “their decision.” (Boy I am sick of hearing ‘I decide’)The only effective way to undo this form of programming is to review the indoctrination process with the individual, forcing a re-examination of the leader or the organisation.
    People are selective in what area they apply good sense and critical judgment to; they have suspended judgment in one area of their lives. These groups usually provide some service to the individual that they desire, such as friends, community, absolutes to live by, security, enhanced self-esteem, power over one’s own life and that of others, etc. They seek an escape from an oppressive situation that renders them powerless and hence giving them the power over one area of their lives and that of others. (For example a marriage mate or child in a controlling environment)
    You really only have to deal with the thought stopping techniques that the cult member has adopted and then present a more balanced set of information about the cult than the cult has already given to the member. They need to become aware of the thought stopping technique they are using that it is an un-objective way to deal with information. After all, if something is true, denying it won’t alter the truth, it will just move you that bit away from reality. It sounds simple but it is easy to fall into the trap of believing something because you want to, not because the evidence warrants it.
    My wife now believes that the collective consciousness that Avatar provides gives her more compassion in the world, my question is if I also believe in a more compassionate world am I allowed to be part of that collective consciousness or it reserved only for Avatars? Also the path to compassion is through recruiting new members, I can’t work the logic of selling courses equals compassion?

  123. Nicky,
    I forgot to mention that 75% (I have read it is as high as 85%) of Masters fail to turn recruiting into any real financial business and any talk of money on a course is frowned upon leading to the student failing that section of the course.
    If she has already spent all her money she will topple from the top of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and once she has lost friends, family, social networks and money she will have to work her way up the pyramid again, unless she remains totally engrossed in the Avatar lifestyle but that only leads to lies and deception to those that really love and care for her. It’s usually this fall from the top of the hierarchy of needs pyramid that wakes people up, like any addiction it’s only when you have lost everything that you start to critically analyse your action and beliefs, not dissimilar to problem gamblers.
    They loose sight of the life the simple meditation tools provide and get caught up in the Avatar life style instead; my wife is now living the lifestyle rather than the life. She also thinks she is helping people, but all I see is a desire to recruit above all else including well intentioned personal goals that she started out to achieve. She dribbles on about her personal goals but she claims her loftier goal of an Enlightened Planetary Civilisation is far more important and this can only be achieved through recruiting and selling courses. Forget about what you have learnt just recruit, recruit, recruit.
    The difference between Avatar and some other MLM businesses is that the total cost and content of the Avatar material is not presented at the beginning, you need some brainwashing to accept it as real as you move along the so called journey. At least religions make the Bible available for all to read and decide if that belief system is for them. MLM’s use the trust of friends and family to sell there products which to me is an immoral way of selling, but at least the total cost of the product is revealed and there is a product unlike Avatar which has no product other than altering peoples beliefs and critical thinking.
    I would also like to thank Rolan for keeping this thread alive, I’m surprised he hasn’t been infested with a virus or worm or threatened by legal action to try and shut this thread down. I’m pretty sure they can’t pursue real legal action although they may make idle threats to do so as I think it is not possible to copyright thought processes.
    If I have saved one person from doing Avatar based on my own personal experience of loosing the mind of a loved one to this lunacy I am happy.

  124. Dear Observer
    On the Pro Course your wife will encounter a number of beliefs to create in an exercise called The Rat List.
    The Rat List has people create a number of beliefs based on the ideas of resistance to a certain concept or belief. The idea being whatever you resist persists, so if you are a lying scumbag the best way to get rid of that reality is to create the Primary “I am a lying scumbag” until you experience it as a reality with no secondaries. Then because you have fully experienced it fully with no resistance only then can you dis create it using the CHP. I suggest you ask your wife to create the primary “I am gullible” and ask her what secondaries show up. If she is resistant to the idea you can encourage her to CHP it straight away so that she wont be gullible at all from that point on. The most interesting thing for her to observe is the sensible secondaries that will pop up in relation to the idea of the primary.
    I doubt she’ll do it but it is a great way for her to see what is floating around in her consciousness.
    Good Luck.

  125. Thanks Doc,
    She did the pro course a few weeks ago and now is attending one of the Avatar courses I think section I II & III so she can become a Star Master! which means I think they are teaching her how to plant worms inside the heads of new recruits. Who knows, it scares me that her own personal life is such a mess and she is now teaching others how to destroy their lives. Still as you say chin up.
    Cheers ; )

  126. Dear Observer,

    Thanks a lot for your comment. It must be really hard for you to be in your position.
    Regarding vulnerability, my friend ‘s brother died some years ago and she has not been able to overcome this sad lost. Since then she has been trying to answer a lot of questions that she could not find… Until now I guess. This avatar thing takes advantage of people with a low self-steem and makes them feel sort of superior somehow, as if only them knew ‘the true’, if only them knew a secret… that’s another reason why it is so addictive.

    It is ridiculous to me whenever I see all this people from avatar embracing each other and denying the fact that they are never going to experience any negativity in their lives. Nature is simple and beautiful but it is selfish and cruel at the same time. And I am sorry, but we can not change that.
    Many times I think there is a lack of scientific information on some people and they should read more about biology stuff to answer some (and many) of the questions they have.

    I also have to retain some laugh sometimes but if she ever sees that, I know she will move away from me and that is something I do not want to happen. I just want to be next to her with the hope someday her mind will just make a ‘click’ and all the avatar thing will pass away…

  127. Thanks Nicky,
    Good luck with your friend, the click you are looking for is called ‘Snapping’ there is an anti cult book about it.
    As far as these people embrassing science that won’t happen as they are taught deny science. Honestly I think most of these people would rather be dead than think, like I said in an earlier post it’s basically a course for middle class morons.

  128. Dear Observer
    The term Star Master is simply a master who has successfully delivered the Avatar course to at least 20 students. Star Masters pay less in Royalties to Stars Edge as they like to reward those who are good at getting students. Most Star Masters I know are in perpetual poverty as they only get good financial returns if they get multiple students per course. By the time they fly to the next delivery and stay in a Hotel for a week and add on intern fees there’s sod all left. Even experienced masters are duped into paying intern fees for the privilege of doing all the work for many years after they receive a full license.
    Harry, Avra and Stars Edge seem to be the only winners financially. Even the Stars Edge trainers I know seem to have left their families and friends to forsake all for the cause. What amazes me is that after abandoning their families in the name of enlightenment and living like slaves they are under the delusion that they are free and “Living Deliberately” and we are the ones who haven’t woken up.
    Perhaps EPC actually stands for Everlasting Poverty Cause.

  129. Thanks for this thread. I had never heard of Avatar until I met a “Wizard” this weekend, and started Googling about it.

    Any organization that claims their altruistic goal is to save mankind and the planet, but then charges huge amounts and swears you to secrecy – well? Sincere organizations would provide all literature for free or at cost, because their goal to spread the word, not make money.

    Money is always a potential corruptor, and bends our motivations and truthful perceptions in direct proportion to the amount.

    It is easy to spend hours and hours reading how to be a better person, to meditate, find enlightenment, pay to take Avatar courses, etc. It is another to visit the sick, write a letter of condolence, help out at a shelter, call someone who is lonely, make amends, express appreciation, etc.

    Recently I made a list of people I know that are sick, lost a loved one, a job loss, etc. At the end of the week, when I compared how much time I spent reading about becoming a better person, versus actually BEING a better person – Hours spent Internet surfing sadly beat out reaching out to others by a large number of hours. I am working on a better ratio in 2011 and it is not costing $thousands to do so.

    If a person is obsessive about anything or any person – even about learning to be a better person, then ironically – as was stated several times by others on this thread, it will seduce and distract them away from their loved ones, God, and their original goals.

  130. Den,

    Recalls that old adage “there’s one born every minute.” Guess you’re the one for this minute.

  131. “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” – Eleanor Roosevelt

    Albert Einstein could not talk before he was four years old.

    Winston Churchill had to repeat a school year.

    Beethoven’s music teacher said, “You will never be a composer.”

    Thomas Edison’s teacher said, “Too stupid to learn.”

    Walt Disney was fired as a reporter because he wasn’t creative enough.

  132. Den,
    I’m not sure what the point of your last post was? Anyway think of Avatar like a penis, use your expensive but simple meditation tools a few times a day to get rid of unwanted waste, keep it away from children and don’t shove it down peoples throats.

  133. hahahahaha!!!!!


    THAT is the comment of the year – and it’s only fn January!

    I hereby declare your guaranteed inclusion in next year’s Boomtown Rap Awards. In the meantime, will be sharing your contribution far and wide. Classic.

  134. May be you want to explore the other side of this story and see the other points of view:


    One day, every one in his life has a chance to EXPERIENCE the true nature of Being, that is beyond mind and body. However, for the most this happens on the last day of their life

  135. Hey Den
    From one who’s done the whole Disneyworld of consciousness Wizards Experience I’d encourage you to look forward to the Wizards exercise where you explore Secrets and Hidden Agendas. When you encounter the piece where you are encouraged to confess any plans or goals that you have that are misaligned with Harry Palmer or Stars Edge, ask yourself the question “If everything is just a belief and there is no right or wrong, why would a plan or goal not aligned with Harry or Stars Edge need to be explored as a hidden agenda?” If you are unwittingly part of a cult that needs to protect its leaders infallibility or rightness then this kind of exercise makes perfect sense. If Avatar is just about the exploration of beliefs and holds the view that no belief is right or wrong then this sort of exercise should ring warning bells. Does my question cause you to want to shut down any thought that Avatar might be a bit dodgy or does it encourage you to decide for yourself? The desire to protect Avatar is not a message from your higher self, it’s been implanted in you.
    In Christianity even Gods motives are often questioned by his followers. In Avatar you’ll find any questioning of Harry, Avra, Stars Edge, your master etc. will be met with the idea that its your problem and you need to work on what’s being triggered in you.
    If you are determined to do Wizards Den I’d suggest you create the Primary “I can spot damaging bullshit and it wont take root in my mind” before you go.
    Since doing Avatar over 10 years ago the only activity that I have seen anyone involved with Avatar do to create an enlightened planetary civilization is to sell more Avatar courses. Hopefully you’ll come home from Wizards with a desire to make a useful contribution to society.
    Toodle pip.

    Dear Observer, Love the analogy!

  136. Hey Den,
    So far all your posts are taken word for word from Harry’s literature or the Avatar Journal aren’t you drones allowed to have your own opinion, you all sound the same . I subscribe to the Avatar journal and most of the entries are fairly inaccurate. I read the one yesterday from John Toomey and it also sounded the same as all the other 100,000 Avatar graduates even his web site is the same old boring dribble but it is good for a laugh. Maybe at the up coming Wizzies course you could all repeat “I am an individual” together. ; ) Remember just because you believe something doesn’t make it the truth, the truth is the truth. Living a delusional reality doesn’t make it real just let’s you continue to stop caring about those that really care about you so you can continue your work in the hive.

  137. Den,

    No No No thank you for sharing Harry’s and Stars Edge view point. I would have liked to have heard yours. Your a good little condescending pissweak Avatar now off for a walk for atonement or some more drills for you, I mean you don’t want to be handing your source around like that again do you. Have fun at Wizzies, what’s that other old adage ‘A fool and his money are soon parted’

  138. I have a pile of compassion cards if anyone wants them? They are a little to rough to wipe my ass with.

  139. Don’t waste your time with the Avatar compassion exercise which is a complete sham.
    It’s actually a selfish exercise which lulls you into observing others from a distance with no need to get involved. The expected result is a personal sense of peace. The actual result is a delusional sense that everything is OK (therefore because its all OK you don’t need to be stirred up about it and that feeling of detached “nothing touches me” calmness seems very peaceful.
    How can an exercise designed to increase compassion leave you with a sense of peace? Compassion by definition is co-suffering. This shared sense of suffering is what will motivate you to change the circumstances and therefore the experience of the sufferer, not feel at a personal sense of peace about their suffering!

    The compassion exercise is encouraged to be done in busy places like shopping malls and airports. Keep an eye out for a person with a dopey smile observing people from a distance extending them compassion.

    It goes something like this.
    Oh look there is a smelly homeless person.
    “Just like me this person is seeking some happiness for his/her life.
    Just like me this person is trying to avoid suffering in his/her life. Just like me this person has known sadness, lonlieness and despair. Just like me this person is seeking to fulfill his/her needs.
    Just like me this person is learning about life. (Compassion exercise ends).
    The thought that “unlike me they are happy, clean and well fed” is unlikely to cross your mind. The more likely scenario follows.
    “Wow I am feeling all peaceful and calm. Right, I think I’ll go and get myself a coffee”.

    Harry says “Love is an expression of the willingness to create space in which something is allowed to change”

    A more useful definition would be that “Love is an expression of actions that improve the lives of others not just my own”

    Avatars get off your ass and actually do something useful to alleviate suffering rather than standing around with a dopey look on your face feeling all personally peaceful.

    Wizards. The process of being magically fooled into believing that giving USD $7500 to Harry for a course is actually contributing to an EPC.

  140. Darn proof reading let me down in above post.
    The piece
    The thought that “unlike me they are happy, clean and well fed” is unlikely to cross your mind.
    should read
    The thought that “unlike me, they are NOT happy, clean and well fed” is unlikely to cross your mind.
    My apologies all.
    Toodle Pip.

  141. Why do Harry and Avatarites think they invented the term compassion? People have long been compassionate. It is a natural human emotion (for some). Avatar comes along with their cute and colorful compassion cards and are like “hey, look at us…we are the founding fathers of compassion.” I hear Harry sent compassion cards to members of Congress. I guess all will be right soon!

    I know from first hand experience that Avatar Masters do not practice what they preach when it comes to compassion. My master played a game with me and screwed me over just to try to get me to buy into this cult. It was far from compassionate. Fortunately, I came to my senses about this joke organization after experiencing first hand how ridiculous these courses and exercises really are.

  142. Hey Doc,

    My wife carries the compassion cards around with her and does the exercise on those she sees as easy targets, look vulnerable or that she would like to recruit. She first recites the dribble on the card to herself and then hands the card to person, they say thank you isn’t that nice and then at the bottom of the card is all the Avatar contact details and some more dribble on the compassion project.
    I often ask her if I also believe in more compassion in the world (as would most people) aren’t we also contributing to the so called compassion project.
    Something I will try to explore with her when she back from Wizzies is what is it after more than $40K that she can do that I can’t other than recruit people to Avatar and contribute to a EPC. My goal is to start to try and get her to think for herself???
    I watched one of HP’s a podcasts on ‘service to others’ and it starts out with the tools of Avatar teach you personal responsibility and compassion fine, but he looses me when he draws the long bow and tells them the only way to truly demonstrate these qualities is through service to others and how do you provide service to others you guessed it recruit more Avatars.

  143. I wonder about the top secret Wizards course, of course too powerful for mere rational thinking human beings to understand because as we all know supposedly we we try to intellectualize the material and Avatar is a feeling, buy when I enquire to my wife about what happens on a course she says they work through the work books? Why the hell do you need workbooks for then.
    Reading the Wizzies material it’s the 10th century Wizards stuff that blows me away. Apparently there were Wizards way back then and they follow some bizarre set of rules that HP interprets into modern-day Avatar speak for the drones on the course, I’ve look all through history and have not found any reference to 10th century Avatar Wizards nor Wizards since very percular.
    The best con on the Wizards course and the understanding only trained masters supposedly understand is how they move from the identity paradigm to the entity paradigm and this is what they are paying $7500 for to learn how to persuade imaginary soles of the deceased to leave there bodies that are the cause of all evil in there bodies, these entities are apparently lost soles of the dead that are stuck on one of the six astral planesthat attach thselves to you and are the cause of all the evil in your life, sound like Scientology body thetans to me. Apparent there are 12 astral planes but too much even for a trained Wizard to understand, maybe only those on the imaginary Wizards council may be privledged to know.

  144. Sorry about the typo’s above I’m sure you get the gist thou, using new iPhone too intuitive for me but so is Avatar.

  145. Did Harry really send compassion cards to congress? One of the 918 people who died in the Jonestown Peoples Temple cult mass suicide was a Congressman. Maybe Harry is planning something bigger.

  146. Yes, good old Harry sent compassion cards to Congress…he posted it on his Facebook page.

  147. Did you know that The Compassion Exercise has been modified through various re-prints?

    In the Resurfacing Workbook I have from doing Avatar in the late 90’s it was suggested that a variation of the exercise to be done on “Alien Life Forms”

    I guess it was changed to “Other Life Forms” because either a) students recognize the complete Fruitcake nature of it too easily or b) too many people were killed by trucks as they wandered highways gazing heavenward in the search of aliens and it became a physical health issue as well as a mental health issue.

    I still marvel at my own stupidity and gullibility in being involved with Avatar in the past and never fail to be amazed that people with PHD’s are Avatar Masters. I guess there is just no limit to our own self inflicted stupidity at times.

    Happy Wizards course everyone, Unlike you, Harry gets rich off every Avatar course you attend.

  148. “I still marvel at my own stupidity and gullibility in being involved with Avatar in the past and never fail to be amazed that people with PHD’s are Avatar Masters. I guess there is just no limit to our own self inflicted stupidity at times.”

    My thoughts exactly! I burned by Resurfacing book and whatever the title of that other book by Harry is. I want any hard evidence of my participation in that crap gone forever. I am so thankful I have enough common sense now about Avatar to realize it is ridiculous.

  149. I have done Avatar courses, one after the other. The Masters “inspire you” to register for the next course while you are the most vulnerable. They don’t care if you have to sell your home to pay for the courses. And yes, I met people who did that.
    The Star’s Edge trainers call you until they get you to do all the courses. And only when you bring new students they want to know you, otherwise they drop you. Don’t expect any help from them if you stop paying for revisions of the courses either. Everything is a big secret and you as a Master are not allowed to share any material except “The Resurfacing” book which is readly available. The top trainer Rich started to use the word “drama” and had a cheek to ask us not to share it with no Avatars. How rediculous is that? They don’t even allow you to have gatherings with other Masters to do some processes together. It is strongly advised to come to the international courses and yes, pay for them, to process your stuff in the “safe environment”.
    As the program is concerned I have to say that a lot of it is good and helpful, but again totally based on Scientology. I compared the notes with someone who has done the Scientology course and similiarities are uncanny. You need to know that Harry Palmer, his wife Avra and their frind Miken who runs the office were heavily involved in Scientology. Some processes are useful in therapy and I use them as one of many modalities, but they need to be done as a tool only. When you go from one process to the other on the courses you start to be brainwashed. The trainers put into you, what they call “a white worm” to incourage you to take more courses and bring more people with you. Apparently by doing it you create enlightened planetary civilization. They install into you the belief that it is something wrong with you and you need to clear it, or in avatar terms discreate, and again go to yet another course and pay more.
    Avatar is a huge business and only Harry and his small team make money out of this. The Masters are like salepeople on a small commission.
    I hope this will help.

  150. Dissapointed,

    My experience with Avatar sounds similar to yours. My master and the other trainers were all caring until they realized that I was not “absorbing” the Avatar materials like others were. Then I was basically hung out to dry after the course…an emotional mess from what I experienced. Pretty sad when these people preach compassion so strongly only to abandon a person when that person encounters problems. I feel somewhat vindicated though as I guilted my master into a full refund. Funny how this course broke apart a friendship with me and my master (we were friends before the course). My friend will no longer have a thing to do with me despite knowing the emotional state I was left in. There is your compassion Harry.

    I would never, ever advise anyone to do the Avatar course. These people are NOT trained psychologists or mental health experts like they pretend to be. The tools and exercises now seem so ridiculous to me. And the trainers love to throw around their “power”. If a student does not do an exercise to the trainer’s liking, the student must do it again until the trainer feels like the student has achieved a satisfactory result. As mentioned in the previous post, one of the head trainers, Rich, is a very condescending individual. I got this same impression out of some of the other head trainers. And don’t get me started on the Harry Palmer videos that each student must watch daily at the International course! They basically force you to watch them. Of course, Harry the Almighty is worshiped by the other masters and trainers and they sit glued to these videos even though they have seen them countless times.

    Oh, and what goes on behind closed doors before and after the course? During the International course, students were strictly forbidded from entering the classroom area until a certain time and were forced to leave at the end of the day. I was talking to my master at the end of one day when another master literally took me by the arm and told me to leave as they had work to do. Also, students were not allowed in the classroom area during the 1.5 hour lunch break. I found this very, very, very strange. I questioned my master and all I was told was they were working on things to better help students. Yeah right!

    Screw you Harry, Avra, Rich, Patti, Audrey, Agnes and every other trainer, master, etc associated with Avatar.

  151. Dear “Avatar is a Joke” and “Dissappointed”,
    When I started contributing to this thread I was still on the fence about Avatar’s harmful effects. Having been active in the higher levels of the organisation which I did of my (apparent) own free will I was reluctant to speak out. I must admit the embarrassment at being completely suckered by Harry and the team is a big part of it, along with a certain amount of fear associated with “dissing” a cause that has so many fanatical followers, many of them friends or ex friends.
    Having now become a little more informed of the cult characteristics of Avatar and also in researching the whackos on the web who are using things like conversational hypnosis, NLP and other suggestive mind bending techniques to fiddle with others psyche’s, I now see some alarming parallels. Some of the resurfacing exercises that I thought were useful, particularly the ones on attention management and will, I now view with extreme suspicion.
    I see that the effect the attention exercises have on shutting down the mind chatter (seemingly helpful) is actually shutting down critical thinking which is a very useful self-preservation mechanism when surrounded by cult recruiters.
    The will exercises which supposedly give you more self-control also make you more susceptible to suggestions and commands from others.
    I have seen Derren Brown do a version of Avatar’s conviction exercise with someone and convince them that yellow was actually red. The expected result of the Avatar exercise is an insight into methodologies of indoctrination. The actual result is you get a tangible experience of what happens as you deliberately change your level of certainty in a belief. Inadvertently you actually make yourself more open to indoctrination. After doing the exercise you become much less certain of any beliefs and much more willing to believe any crazy suggestion that you are presented with.
    I still have close friends who are Masters and yet I can say nothing to them that would cause doubt as they have been so cleverly programmed into thinking that anything I said against Harry or Avatar would just be a “creation” of mine or a projection of my own lack of integrity. Cult programming at its finest!
    Instead of seeing another sucker born every minute, I still marvel at the number of highly intelligent people I know who have done the course. As part of their initiation they are instructed to dis-create any beliefs they have that the procedures might be wrong or dangerous. This does seem to have the tangible outcome of not many Avatar Graduates speaking out against it after the course, in spite of many experiencing some emotional instability in the weeks that follow.

    I applaud you for speaking up and I hope that as a result the groundswell of discontent continues to build against this organisation that preys on the hopes and dreams of people who want to improve who they are and contribute to something worthwhile rather than pure selfish gain.
    Harry has been cunning enough to dupe people into giving all for the idea of an EPC but never taking responsibility for them after they leave jobs, families and loved ones to be on the path. Look at poor Observer whose wife is giving all for the cause. Harry doesn’t have to care for her, feed her, clothe her or put up with her spouting Harry’s twaddle, Observer does. How clever is that!

    Right, enough of my ranting. Time for a Brandy!
    Toodle pip.

  152. Dr. Strangelove,

    Fortunately, my critical thinking was not shut-down during the course. Each exercise and tool I went through all I kept thinking was how ridiculous these are. But, I kept at it, despite the warnings my critical thinking and common sense were throwing at me. Why? Because my master and others were telling how much progress I was making in such a short period of time. A small part of me was trying to buy into their brainwashing ways. But, a bigger part of me was not having it.

    I left the course feeling a great deal of emotional distress because my master put me in a compromising and vulnerable position by diving into sensitive areas of my personsal life that I was not comfortable discussing in that environment. But, at the time, I trusted my master. Shame on me I guess.

    I am glad this blog is here for those of us with experience with this messed organization can have a place to rant, and hopefully warn others from making the mistake we have made.

  153. Glad to hear a few ex Avatar’s comments, I am expecting my wife to return full of zeal and try and recruit her little heart out she already sounds totally brainwashed after a few days at Wizzies her language has changed but my experience is that it doesn’t last long and I am going away for a few weeks as I can’t stand her behavioral changes post course.
    Doc we have young children and that is why I hang in there esspecially after she told me she wants to introduce them to this dribble, they like me and others that really care about her have to become source apparently Lol…
    Honestly listening to Sensi from the kids teenage mutant ninja DVDs makes more sense than Harry.
    I would say in about 2 months we will be totally broke so if thats what it takes for her to wake up so be it.

  154. Dear Observer,
    Hang in there old chap. So glad to hear that in the midst of your suffering you are willing to make decisions for the sake of your family. I hope that one day your wife will be full of appreciation for what you have done.
    My family were incredibly lucky that I exited the cult after many years of spending our resources on endless courses and internships. My wife got used to me coming home from Wizards full of zeal. As you say it doesn’t last long. I too wanted to introduce my children to Avatar but thankfully they showed zero interest and viewed me as a bit of a crackpot.
    I admire your “head screwed on” approach. My thoughts are with you old boy.
    Toodle Pip
    The Doctor.

  155. I have been following this blog for some time as like others some of our family have become involved in Avatar.They have spent thousands on all the courses including wizards. Its interesting to say the least on how they now behave. They haven’t approached the rest of the family (as yet) and are very guarded even deceptive in relation to their involvement. My question is to Observer. You had mentioned that the Masters handbook outlines the type of people they should target to recruit. I would love to know who or what they look for as we are rather curious as to why they haven’t approached us as yet.

  156. Someone actually posted on Harry’s Facebook wall about how he used the Avatar tools to weaken a cyclone approaching Queensland. Seriously?! What the hell?! That is simply psychotic thinking, pure and simple.

  157. Curious
    I can’t help but read from your post that you are also being deceptive in relation to your involvement, I can tell you and you must have gathered from my posts that I respect and love my wife and her privacy, so I don’t read through her course material. What would be the point, I haven’t done the course so I could only intellectualise the material (so I get told), I mean Intellectualising something only enables critical thinking and we wouldn’t want that . The information I gather is from external sources that is freely available. Harry also often covers the types of people to recruit or avoid in his ramblings. The Avatar masters handbook from Amazon also covers the incredible push to teach Masters how and whom to recruit. I can only say that if your family members haven’t tried to recruit you then they are not being good little Avatars and they certainly need to go back and do some more courses till they achieve the primary to create more Avatars. I just don’t understand after all the work on a collective consciousness they do why don’t the worlds Avatars mind-meld like Spock and the Vulcan’s do, what is the need to continue to attend courses?

  158. Like Curious I have been following this blog for many months now and I watched in horror as my daughter became ensnared (very secretively) in the tentacles of Avatar.

    I consider myself fairly well educated and know about cults etc. but I had no idea about groups like this. I was astonished to see my daughter raving on with cliche-ridden avatar speak about how she is now going to earn her living selling and teaching avatar and how we all need to be heading towards an Enlightened Planetary Civilisation etc. etc.

    I fell into the trap of trying to convince her of the folly of all this but I quickly realised this was pointless. The level of mind control/manipulation/hypnosis etc has been truly frightening.

    What was more devastating for my immediate family has been the ‘loss’ of someone they have known and loved for over twenty years. She has been very well trained to put up the shutters to anyone who shows ‘resistance’ to the cause.

    I thank Observer and the good Doctor for their input and like Observer I await with the usual sense of dread what will be on her mind when she gets back from Wizards. My guess is some more good ol’ fashion recruiting (again).

    A few months back I watched in horror as she tried to coerce (the only word for it) one of my other daughters into the fold. To my everlasting relief this did not eventuate.

    So most of 2010 has been spent in a limbo-like existance watching this horrible process unfold. I feel great sympathy for Observer in dealing with this nightmare with his young family in the mix. I hope it all sorts itself out!

    I have a question for Doctor Strangelove if it is not too much trouble: I am interested to know what eventually caused you to ‘see the light’ re avatar?

    Thank you Rolan for this blog: it has helped me greatly dealing with this whole mess.

  159. Dear Aghast
    My process of waking up was simply that “a process”
    Unfortunately people who leave Avatar and speak out are sent hate mail by some of the unbalanced few and slapped with a law suit by Stars Edge if they reveal any of the confidential materials so I wish to remain anonymous.

    There were a few things that built over time for me as warning signs.
    1. The regular team of people I worked with (around 20 of them) were a great group when everything was going well and we were either on course together or trying to generate students for the next course. In stark contrast to this if I was struggling in any way not to do directly with Avatar there was zero support. I have had approximately 3 phone calls since I had a health scare and dropped off the face of the earth a few years ago. I asked myself “If these guys are such a committed team and all want to support others to improve their lives why did only 3 bother to call? I loved these guys. An explanation for this which I heard offered by a trainer is if you are trying to save the planet you don’t have time to waste with people who are not moving forward. It’s a better return on your effort to only focus on people who are moving ahead and getting new students and not waste your time with people who could drag you down.
    My Conclusion: If you are not generating students you are not actually contributing to Harry’s EPC and therefore are not worth supporting.

    2. I had a close friend who like me was on the path to full time Avatar and committing to making it their life’s work. I became quietly and secretly horrified when they were considering dumping their partner who was unsupportive. Unsupportive here means a)complaining at the amount of time the Master spends giving intro’s and flying away to attend courses and b) complaining that the Master was spending too much of their money on intern fees, airfares and accommodation.
    The suggestion from the Stars Edge Trainer (one of several who has a broken family)was “When you show up for your life others are bound to get stirred up because they are not showing up for theirs. Do you want to pursue your dream or be held back by others and go back to sleep?” The number of Avatar Masters that I know of who are delivering full time and who have a stable family I could count on one hand.

    My Conclusion: Becoming a committed and aligned Avatar Master means having a job, being a partner, father, mother, etc is all secondary to the cause.

    3. I had two female friends who were nice people, quite smart and on to it who suffered psychotic breaks after a course and ended up needing hospitalisation. The view within the network is changing around people who have any kind of depression or mental illness. The learning here has been that you need to steer clear of these people if possible as they will probably have some serious emotional instability post course and attack the source of their awakening. The idea that the instability could actually be triggered by the Avatar processes never enters the Masters heads and any students who have these issues are usually not discussed or spoken of at all. I saw repeatedly students becoming ungrounded on the courses and the view was always that it was the course that was helping them uncover stuff that they had buried in their lives and they were becoming ungrounded to escape having to face it.
    My Conclusion: Many people seem to make it through the basic course OK (remember that most people are on the course to handle major life issues) but too many are experiencing harmful effects during the course and afterwards and the number of people requiring hospitalisation during the course is too great to ignore anymore.

    4. Over time I started to see that any questioning of Harry or a Trainer or a fellow Master was greeted with “What identity are you in?” or “Why are you projecting things onto others?” While I value the idea that “what I hate in others is possibly what hate in myself, it is rather a ridiculous notion if I get really upset about seeing somebody steal from another. Is it the thief in myself that I should be working on to the exclusion of all else? I think not. Questioning this allowed me to commit the sin of all sins, looking on the internet for information about Harry. The first time I did this I felt compelled to confess and make amends at my next Wizards Course. The way to make amends is to promise Harry and Avra (x) number of new Avatars to make up for your wrongdoing. I discovered that Harry was an ex Scientologist and that he falsely claimed to be an Educational Psychologist. I then looked at some of the cult websites which used scales for assessing cult danger and made my own assessment.
    My Conclusion at the time: There is more than meets the eye here. It would be wise to keep an open mind about these possibilities rather that disregard them as hateful attacks on a wonderful man.
    My Conclusion now: Avatar doesn’t directly ask you to sell your house and give all the money to Harry but you will in most likelihood do just that by paying for endless reviews and internships. The difference is they only want you in the cult if you are capable of contributing multiple students per course. If you don’t do that they will only spend time with you on getting the next course to review (more cash) or completing all the higher level courses.

    5. At Wizards I experienced bizarre adulation and worship of Harry. I also saw the extreme control and manipulation of Trainers and Masters by Avra. Harry is protected from the adoring crowds by staying distant and guru like and Avra encourages every gain that a person makes to be written down on a success card and sent to Harry who reads each one. All appreciation and adoration must flow to Harry.I have seen more covert encouragement to worship Harry at Wizards than I ever saw overt encouragement to worship God in a church.
    My Conclusion: Wake the hell up Doctor! You are being peddled multi-level enlightenment from a guy who found himself on another planet in another galaxy. You are not part of an episode of Dr Who so for goodness sake pull out and abort mission.

    6. The time from my exit to the time when I came firmly to the conclusion that Avatar is the personal moneymaking empire of Harry Palmer and Avra Honey Smith has been years in the making. During this period I have been uneasy and reluctant to speak out. Is my unease part of the prolonged indoctrination I received in the cult. I think so.
    My Conclusion: For idealist like me who love to believe in a “cause” and like the idea of living a life serving and sharing with others than one of selfish gain Avatar seemed like a God send at the time. I was suckered and for that I feel shame and embarrassment. For the people I got into Avatar I feel sadness and remorse.

    7. After being alerted to the dangers of mind control techniques on one of the cult awareness websites I started to do more research and am now alarmed at the similarity between some of the processes covert hypnotists and conversational hypnotists use and the effects of some of the ReSurfacing exercises.
    My Conclusion: When the Attention and Will exercises done in Avatar produce the same shut down of critical thinking and reasoning that Hypnotists use to put unknowing subjects into a highly suggestible state it would be best not to do that around someone who has the goal of selling you $40,000 worth of personal development courses. I believed I was awake and Living Deliberately. Without projecting my problems on Avatar could it be possible that I was cleverly manipulated when I was in a highly suggestible state after applying the Avatar tools? Can I believe that a belief I hold is a deliberate one when in fact it is just the expression of a previous indoctrination? Scarily I think there are scores of Avatar Masters who are slaves to the indoctrination of Harry, Avra, The Stars Edge Trainers and their QM’s. WAKE UP!

    Hope that goes some way to answering your question old boy.
    Toodle Pip.
    The Doctor

  160. Dear Curious
    Skilled Avatar Masters know how to focus on people who are interested in answers to the following questions:
    Who am I?
    Why am I here?
    Where am I going?

    Fundamentally you will be only a good prospect if you have some interest or inspiration in the above areas.

    They are also encouraged to look for prospects who are interested in improving themselves or the lives of others. New Agers, Greenies and people who buy stuff at Health Food Stores are particularly good targets.

    The Avatar Masters Handbook has a way of grading prospects to define what level of “sub product” you are. I have lost mine so I cant remember the steps although I think there are about 7. I think at level 7 you are someone who has signed up to do the Resurfacing Course.

    You will probably find that you are not being targeted because you haven’t exhibited any real interest and may be considered antagonistic.

    I’d say “Count your blessings” that you haven”t been targeted.

    Here’s one of the interesting ideas you would be read at an Avatar intro evening.
    “The principle dilemma of existence is what to believe. That”s philosophic abyss that confronts everyone. That”s the abyss called I don’t know. It’s dangerous not to know. At the edge of the abyss are the shops of the belief peddlers. Some shops are lavish and hallowed with Histories(Think churches and cathedrals) Some are Volkswagen buses driven by cult recruiters (Think moonies or orange people etc). There are thousands of rickety belief bridges across the abyss and each one leads to a slightly different experience. What is different about Avatar is that the belief program is blank (the idea that it’s blank lulls you into a false sense of security, ahhh no one is going to tell me what to believe. However it is complete bullshit) the bridge is rock solid and the ticket is round trip” (i.e. you have nothing to worry about as you aren’t on a one way program) WAKE UP!

    The Doctor prescribes continued vigilance and wariness and a guarding of ones mind against cult recruiters. They wont be driving a Volkswagen bus, they’ll be one of your family or friends.

    Toodle Pip.

  161. Dear Aghast,
    Thank you for your concern your situation sounds as hopeless as mine, your post brought home a few emotions I know we are both feeling.
    The thing is that we believe 90% of what people we trust tell us and forgo the other 10%. Avatar is a MLM so people are generally introduced to it by someone they trust a close friend, as in my case or a family member.
    From what I understand now is that you need to also gain her trust, don’t judge her just tell her you want her to be happy. Once you have her trust be inquisitive and ask about Avatar, ask open questions and give her a long time to answer. You have to engage her critical mind, respond with things like “that’s not really clear can you explain further”. When she speak in Avatar language using words like inspiration, acknowledge, identity (I’m sure you know the language) tell her you don’t understand could she explain what she means as you are just trying to understand what she is saying and what she has learnt on the course. Maybe show a tiny bit of interest in attending an introductory course she won’t be able to help herself and will start blabbing on.
    When my wife left to go to Wizards one of our children was very emotional about her going away and her way of distancing herself from feeling any real sadness or emotion was to say how good it was that he was ‘acknowledging’ his emotions, this was so she didn’t have to take responsibility for her actions. I asked her what she meant by him acknowledging his emotions? I followed it up with the reality that no he is sad that his mother was leaving I could see her critical mind kicking in briefly.
    Anyway this is how I now will be approaching my wife you will need to engage the support of friends and family to do the same, it will be a long road especially after reading Doc’s posts, personally I don’t want to give up on my wife but certainly I am thinking I have to place a time frame on it sooner or later, insidious bast@#ds.

  162. Dear Doctor,

    I thank you very much for your considered insight into the way you managed to re-engaged with reality after being trapped in what seems like a partially self-created alternate reality. The insidiousness of the entrapment/maintenance process in avatar to me is rather mind boggling. I understand more now about why my daughter seemed so keen to go to the early courses she went to: she thought she was being given the ‘keys to the kingdom’!

    I notice now that ‘the thrill is gone’ as she has had little success with prospects (I think that is the term used). So while she has been interning at courses she has not brought many if any newbies along. I guess that would be used as a spur to get her to try harder recruiting etc.

    The bubbly enthusiasm that carried her along 9-10 months ago is long gone and is replaced by more of a grim demeanour. She talks more and more about ‘showing up for people’ – I am sure she has been told that “yes I know it is a struggle but your pain will be someone elses gain”. I think that in hind sight the purpose of the Pro course is mainly to help manage the disenchantment that budding avatars feel when they start to get some nagging feelings about why their world is not getting any brighter.

    Any way thanks again for the info – until I visit the waiting room again, bye for now.

  163. Dear Observer,

    Thanks for the thoughts about re-engagement of critical thinking processes. While speaking to my daughter the other day (when she was at wizards) I was astounded when she talked briefly about ‘putting avatar on the back burner for a while’ and re engaging in some study etc that has been untouched since her pre-avatar days. I couldn’t believe my ears! I am just wondering whether it maybe has started dawning on her about friends she has that have now completed/nearly completed their tertiary studies etc.

    I have got a horrible feeling that maybe this has just been suggested to her by someone on the course as a way of signing more people up. Then again it might just be a part of her mind wondering ‘where am I headed’?

    I am saddened by the effect the loss of their mother on yet another course has had on your kids. I also take heart in what the good doctor prescribed: since avatar has no solid base you need to chip away at the foundations.

    I thank you for references you provided along the way (e.g. Dangerous Persuaders) which helped me greatly understand wtf actually happened to my daughter. I wish you and your family a ‘soft landing’ through all of this – I do know that as the thrill of avatar begins to wear off you get more of a chance to tinker with the incongruity of the whole thing.

    All the best.

  164. Dear Aghast
    I was very encouraged to hear that your daughter had reconnected with some of her desire for study. If someone originates (notice that originates is part of “Avatar Speak”)that they are really inspired to go make a million dollars or go climb Mt Everest they will be supported to create the primary and go for it. As Avatar says it supports people to live more deliberately it can’t very well discourage peoples dreams. The thing that it flags with the team is that you are not really aligned or inspired by the whole EPC thing and they’ll drop you like a hot cake. In all my time with Avatar we never discouraged peoples inspiration to go for something they really desired. We just supported them to create their primary cut them loose and moved on. Of course our goal was always to encourage that inspiration to be contributing to an EPC. All our efforts went on getting them to Masters, Pro Course, Wizards and to intern with students on the basic Avatar course as this was seen to support Harry’s vision. The difference between Avatar and some others cults is that Avatar doesn’t care if you leave. The benefit here is that a traumatic exit with deprograming is not needed. You will no longer recieve any real support but if you show the slightest inkling to get back in touch or be at the next course the support machine will kick in in full force.

    Harry realizes that for his MLM empire trying to keep people “in” who don’t want to be there would be a huge waste of energy and resources. The Masters may wonder from time to time why they are not encouraged to “really help people” but the busy schedule of calls and intro evenings to prospects will soon have them too busy to think about this. The feeling of success at getting a new prospect signed up or an Avatar graduate signed up for Masters will make the concerns about those discarded disappear very quickly.

    The great news here is that when your daughter gets a bit discouraged, as she will, you can then focus on connecting her with the things she really desires. Support for what she really wants will be more powerful than any effort to undermine Avatar which she will be relatively immune to.

    Here’s just one of my experiences of being dropped like a hot cake.
    I had committed to being on the next Avatar course as an interning Master course with students when I was at Wizards a few years ago. I was assigned a more experienced Master to support me in getting to the course with students. A couple of weeks following my return I hit the emotional speed wobbles and was also wondering how I was going to support my family as throwing in my job to be able to more fully commit to Avatar wasn’t putting food on the table (I was crap at signing people up). When I told the Master on our daily catch up phone call that I was pulling out and couldn’t be at the next course but really needed some support to get more mentally stable the Master got angry with me for quitting. They told me that the agreement to help me was because I committed to being at the course with students and me pulling out changed things. I was left to fend for myself and the Master put their attention on others who were moving forward. Interestingly enough that Master disappeared from the scene not long after that as they couldn’t financially sustain it either.

    It appears that the most successful Avatar Masters are single (a partner or children can get in the way of your busy international schedule) or someone who is self employed and is financially independent (so endless courses that cost you aren’t a problem). Unless you are very skilled at signing up potential students and can actually make an income from it you will likely end up on the financial scrap heap with a pile of broken dreams to keep you company.

    Fortunately only a few can actually make it as a full time Master. From the over 100,000 Avatar graduates I would estimate that there are less than 1000 actual self sustaining full timers and maybe another 5000 who are involved in the occasional course delivery or course reviews worldwide.

    Chin up Aghast, there seems to be some hope for your daughter.
    I’d say the most profitable efforts would be to channel your energy into supporting your daughters real hopes and dreams. I found peoples questioning of Avatar and its motives automatically kicked in a mental defense mechanism for me that stopped me being even willing to contemplate what they suggested. Bloody clever don’t you think?

    Toodle pip

  165. Doc I thank you for your comments and I hope things make a bit of a change for the better although with all the bs my family and I have had to deal with this last year I am cautious to say the least.

    I will try to employ the ideas you have mentioned in dealings with my daughter in terms of her future direction. I find it hard to believe she might reconnect with some of her previous study etc as whenever she returns from a course she seems more focussed than ever on an recruiting and an EPC, but you never know.

    Observer from what I have read about different people’s involvement in avatar it seems that there are different ways of exiting the whole thing. One of my daughter’s friends (who was lured into avatar at the same time) was involved for only a relatively short time and is no longer involved at all.

    I was interested in the statement you made about how you were going to approach things from now on i.e. re-engaging critical thinking slowly but surely.

    It does seem a good idea and even if nothing eventuates in terms of change of direction in my daughter’s case I do know that as things get less glossy in the world of avatar then any little bit of reality that can be brought into play is a good idea.

    Your approach re why your son was sad at her leaving seemed like a good idea. I guess we are always looking for some change from the usual mind set we confront but I do know that things do eventually change – six months ago the last thing on my daughter’s mind would have been her studies but having said that who knows what will be in play when she returns.

  166. Well worst fears realised post wizards, my wife is extremely distant, happened about half way through Wizzies course when I noticed it in phone conversations and has continued upon return. She is not long back and off interning at next course become a mindless drone to this BS.

  167. After Wizards, my old master contacted me informing me of the next International Course in March…the goal is to get me to come back and start over with the whole process. Fat chance. I do not trust any of these wackos. I am starting an AAPC…Anti Avatar Planetary Civilization. The goal is to spread the word about the deceitfulness and crazy BS that Harry and the rest of his goons are selling.

  168. Re: Avatar is a joke

    Count me in for the AAPC, The goal of an EPC is a joke so selective for only those that can afford it. HP should start doing the world a favour other than returning to Estro and open up all his secret BS for all to see, the simple meditation tools he sells are somewhat worthwhile and freely available from other less intrusive sources (short lived as they are). From my reckoning if there were 2500 people at the Wizzies course as they claim and they all paid $7500 US to attend that equates to about $19M. It’s time for HP to give back and practise the “Service to others” that he sprukes.

  169. Well, I am sure not all of the 2500 that attended Wizards were first-timers so not everyone paid that $7500. Regardless, Harry made a nice profit off of all those suckers, and will continue to do so from those that lack common sense.

  170. After trying to be patient, caring and loving to my wife and accept this BS in our lives for the sake of my young children I have finally hit the last straw and we are now separating. It comes as some what of a relief but sad for my children, the situation is totally unlivable as she is completely delusional and irrational.
    Thanks Roland for the site.
    Regards Oseever…

  171. Dear Observer, sorry to read about your situation. Sadly, everyone devoted to Avatar is delusional and irrational. There is no point trying to convince them otherwise. I would love to know how many relationships have ended because of Avatar? I know my master had left her partner because he was not an Avatar. These people have serious issues and are a playing a dangerous game by trying to recruit others into this cult and kicking to the curb those of us who don’t buy in.

  172. Dear Observer
    My heart goes out to you old boy. A very sad situation indeed. Another poor deluded soul wasting away for cause that is nothing other than a parasite living off the hopes and dreams of countless vulnerable seekers.
    I am tremendously sad for your wife too as I know that when she finally wakes up, the shame of what she has caused will be extremely hard to live with.

  173. Dear observer
    Very sorry to hear about the split, it must be terribly hard for you and also hard on the kids. I hope everything settles down a bit now that you have decided to make a break from the counterfeit insanity that is avatar.

  174. Observer,

    Sorry to hear that your relationship has caved in due to the influence of this mob.

    I have stayed out of the recent discussions between people like you, Dr Strangelove, Aghast and Avatar Is A Joke because you guys have personal experience of the workings of Avatar that I do not. Further, I have already made my stance and attitude clear. No need to keep re-stating my views.

    Please be assured, I continue to follow the thread with interest. Obviously, there is a need for a forum online in which people can express themselves about Avatar, and I am pleased to be able to provide such a space. I had no idea when I published my initial post that so many people had so much to vent.

    Legalities prevent me from expressing myself as openly and offensively as I would like. Suffice it to say, I am VERY pleased that this thread comes up at the top of the Google listings, or close to it, whenever ‘Avatar’, ‘Avatar cult’, or similar is typed into the Search menu. That must really piss off Harry and his fellow delusionals. (Cue flippant comment from Harry or one of his disciples assuring us that they are unmoved – amused even – by the outpourings here).

    Long live this thread. Hopefully, the comments and testimonies here will pop the bubble of delusion of some Avatar victims, or dissuade some prospective victims from signing up for an Avatar course.

    Down with cultist predators, fraudsters and false prophets who make bucks out of people’s naivete and quest for meaning or a more satisfying life, and care not at all about the havoc and misery they wreak in the lives of those they exploit, and the suffering and heartache of their preys’ significant others. May Harry and the like cop the full force of their karma.


  175. Thank you Rolan for allowing us ex-Avatars a place to blow off steam.

    My favorite Avatar course moment about just how ridiculous these tools are came during a discreation exercise. It goes like this:

    Master: “What do you want to discreate?”
    Me: “Anxiety” (about a particular issue).
    Master: “Feel-it…feel what it feels like to be anxiety…define it’s boundaries…expand to the outer-limits of this boundary…now repeat: this is not I, this is my creation.”
    Me: “This is not I, this is my creation.”
    Master: “Allow your anxiety to desolve.” (master know tells me to open my eyes)
    Master again: (looking at me like a kid looking at presents on Christmas morning) “Is your anxiety gone!!!”
    Me: “ahhhh…NO.” (I get up and walk away asking myself what the hell was that suppose to accomplish while my master sits there with this sheepish grin on her face).

    Funny thing is after every exercise, that same thought of “what the hell was that suppose to accomplish?” hit me. Of course, I was cast aside as a “non-believer” in the process. Harry, I am not a non-believer.” I am just a rational human being that knows when I am being taken for a ride.

  176. Dear Rolan

    Thanks for providing a place for people to share their opinions on Avatar. While other sites provide a lot more detail on the whacko stuff associated with Harry’s deceitful empire this was the first one I found where one could engage in a dialogue about one’s own experiences. I have found the ability to share an opinion or two to be part of the healing process I needed to help me get over the shame of being one of Stars Edge’s deluded crackpots.

    I recently had to purge my facebook account of all Avatar “friends” as the constant promotion of the next course was daily testing my gag reflex.

    I would be delighted if more people who have had a bad experience with Avatar could have their views heard and their stories told. Perhaps it is time for some brave soul to create a site for “Ex-Avatars Anonymous” and the views of the many and their actual experiences could be aired.

    The suppression of any opinion that would denigrate Harry or Stars Edge has always been a strong aspect of the cult and I’m sure for many this stops them from speaking out.

    I am sure that if the true numbers of people who have been dissatisfied with or harmed by their Avatar experience were known it may make it harder for them to recruit new “students” and that would be a gift to humanity in my book.

    Thanks again old chap for providing a valuable service to humanity through the continuation of this Blog.

    Kindest regards
    The Doctor.


    A self proclaimed Master says to a person looking to broaden his life experience
    “Behind this curtain labeled human consciousness I have a glove that you should try on to see how it fits you. All you have to do is reach behind the curtain and put your hand in the glove. Your belief will determine your experience”

    A concerned onlooker with a mangled hand interrupts with:
    “Watch out it’s not a glove behind the curtain buddy, it’s a meat grinder! The meat grinder will determine your experience!”

    The Master responds with:
    “You don’t want to listen to that guy, look at his mangled hand and what he created for himself. He should have created the experience of the glove with his belief not a meat grinder. You are clearly a more intelligent than he. Go on, create the experience of the glove. Here, pass me your hand ….

    The Doc says “People who have been warned about sticking their hands in meat grinders should listen up or they could end up losing more than just their fingers!

  177. Thanks Rolan for providing this forum it was hard to find something like this thread that had not been shut down. I would also like to thank the other contributors that have had honest and meaningful things to say not the repeated rhetoric of some.
    I have finally reached the end of a very patient and difficult time to see someone I love transform into a mindless stooge all the while thinking they are doing something really worthwhile, while their own life and family are being destroyed.
    Some of the Avatar material and tools has the potential to help people get over short term hurdles in their lives like peeling onions or cleaning the toilet.
    I will continue to monitor and contribute to this thread in the hope no one else has to suffer the loss of someone they love. Don’t be fooled into thinking it is just a personal development course that helps you take back your life rather it takes your life.

  178. I do feel sorry for most everyone who is now devoting their life to Avatar. Most of these people are not bad people, but just caught up in Harry’s bullshit “we are making the world a better and more compassionate place.” This is not what Avatar is really about. Unfortunately, Harry’s devoted disciples can’t see past his spin to know better. Good people have gotten hurt, betrayed, and flat out lied to because of Avatar. Lives have been destroyed because of Avatar. But what comes around goes around…

  179. After looising her husband, destroying her family, spending close to $50K my wife was seen peddling “why Avatar” at the shopping mall, apparently with no success in either recruiting family, friends or strangers to the course she is about to intern with no prospects.
    Her advise from Avatar was to do some “super feel it’s” and redo the discouragement drill till it’s done. Not sure what a super feel it is or how it differs from the normal feel it, but obviously she is doing something wrong even after all this time and money spent on Avatar or maybe it is boring pathetic bullshit that most people aren’t really interested in.
    Also if maybe the Doc could tell me she does these daily alignments with other Avatars and goes on field trips as they are called but doesn’t leave the house, I think mostly done on Skype? What is an alignment and a field trip?

  180. Dear Observer

    The Daily Alignment session is a session with a more senior master (sometimes called a QM which stands for Qualified Master)

    Alignment is one of the buzzwords of the Avatar lingo. Translated it means that if you are aligned you are doing what you are told and not causing any problems while you do “whatever it takes” to get people signed up for the next course.

    The QM checks in daily with the people they have been allocated to look after by the Stars Edge Trainer that oversees the course delivery. The idea is that people like your wife let the QM know how they are getting on in recruiting students for the course and they offer them tips on how to get someone who interested signed up. In Avatar they don’t call it recruiting however, they call it “generating students”.

    When your wife shares her inevitable frustration and discouragement with them they will assign her exercises to do to handle how she is feeling and then get back out there recruiting.

    As your wife will pay a fee to intern on the course under a QM the QM needs to make sure that your wife still interns on the course even if she doesn’t have any students. On the daily alignment conference call they share their wins in recruiting and the QM will try to make sure that the masters don’t spend time thinking about whats going wrong, they’ll try and focus them on getting back out there and signing people up. The alignment sessions usually happen on Skype as the QM’s are broke too and need to be able to connect with their allocated Masters cost effectively.

    On the alignment call the QM will probably coach your wife to recreate her “Primary”. She most likely will have created a Primary like “I intern at the Caloundra course with 2 students” Surprisingly when the Primary doesn’t create the reality she wants, she will be told that she just gave up to soon and didn’t handle all of her secondaries. Instead of doubting “the tools” which are foolproof and always work (ha ha) she will blame herself and ending feeling like a fool.

    A field trip is an activity where a bunch of hopeful Masters will get together go and visit shopping malls and other places looking for the opportunity to start up a conversation, hand out a compassion cards, invite people to an intro etc. As most masters exhaust their circle of family and friends as hopeful prospects pretty quickly they inevitably run out of known people to try and recruit and have to resort to “field trips” to find prospects.

    Hope that fills you in a bit old boy.

    Toodle Pip.

  181. I guess I wasn’t in alignment and that is why I was hung out to dry by Avatar. Funny how being unaligned turned out to be a blessing in disguise! I still can’t believe I actually attended Avatar courses…ugh. I am so ashamed and embarrassed. Wait, aren’t those secondaries? Maybe I need to exaggerate being ashamed and embarrassed until they are gone? And then do a source list. Am I happy to be me? Is this really me? I am me!

    WTF! I still don’t get what the hell feel-it’s, source list, and all the other exercises are suppose to accomplish. Can someone other than a brain-washed Avatar please tell me?

  182. Good old Harry has said 2 million compassion cards have been distributed amongst Avatar crazies. I know the 50 I was given were distributed to the recycling bin, along with all my other junk paper. How is that for awakening Harry and Avra?

  183. Fresh from the recent Avatar course my daughter announced she is now going to the Master course in Florida being held in early April but she is doing the integrity course at the same time the master course is on. From what I gathered from this last avatar course she made some money and this probably will help with the next trip.
    I was wondering if the good doctor could help out explaining the process if you get somebody along to an avatar course. Is there much money involved? Also I am not sure what this integrity course is all about.
    I definitely agree with Nicky – long live this thread!

  184. Dear Aghast,

    In terms of the economics its quite simple. Your daughter will pay Stars Edge a 25% Royalty for her students.I think the course fees are somewhere around $2500K AUD. The rub here is that she wont get to keep 75% of their course fees as she will pay an intern fee to the Stars Edge trainer to attend the course and will pay a share of the fees to hire the hotel etc that the course is delivered in and also spend cash on paying for 9 days accommodation at the Hotel. If you have only one student per course you probably wont break even.

    I’ll save a discourse on the hidden hierarchy of Masters for another time.

    As for the Integrity course at first glance it sounds great. Who wouldn’t benefit from an increase in personal integrity right?

    Your daughter will either get to attend for free if its her first integrity course or pay approximately $500 to attend. If she has students from an Avatar course attending The Masters course she will get a 10% royalty on their $3000 fee. Sounds good, but Stars Edge will not pay her the cash. They will credit her Stars Edge account with the money. This way they can make sure that she spends what is in her account on reviewing Masters, attending Integrity courses, attending Pro or Wizards courses or paying Royalties for her Avatar Students. The idea here is that Stars Edge very rarely end up paying out any cash to the Masters, it’s all puts and takes on the Master’s Stars Edge account. I never drew a single cent of income from my Masters account as I spent it all on review fees etc. The only money she will actually make will likely be from Students who attend the Avatar course with her as their Master. If she could get multiple students per course she could make a living but Masters who have multiple students at every course are the exception rather than the rule.

    Th Integrity course is run concurrently with the normal Master’s Course and you have to have done “Master’s” to get a chance to do “Integrity” It’s a bit like a badge of honour.

    The integrity course itself is an interesting idea but what your daughter will find is that she will be given topics to work on that are things that stand in her way of being a successful full time master. It’s never presented that way of course. Unfortunately she won’t get to choose an integrity topic to work on that really interests her like “honesty”, rather she will get a topic handed out by a Stars Edge Trainer at the beginning of the day. An example of a topic she would get to work on would be “Hiding out in service to self” The idea here is that she should be living in service to others. All of the Topics are related to what would stand in your way of getting more Avatar Students. She will be allocated 3 other buddies to work with on the topic. The process takes a whole day per topic usually as you assist your buddies to “land an ownership belief”. It’s painful and tedious in the extreme. It would be more fun poking yourself in the eye with a dirty fork. The supposed result is that you get to “clean up” and then stop repeating the pattern. At the end of the day she will join with the students on the Masters course for Sacred Dance which is nothing other than a few folk dances and is supposed to assist you to “integrate” whatever the hell that means. Sacred Dance is one of the things that is fun and very moving for some. For me it was just another thing designed to assimilate me and break down my resistance (a bit like the Borg on Star Trek) and help me lose my individual identity.

    My first Integrity Course I did was in the USA so I paid for flights and accommodation and the course fee. I felt it was a complete waste of time and money. After 9 days of time wasting I left feeling like this must be something I had caused as other Masters were claiming incredible gains. I was left wondering what was wrong with me. Believe it or not I did several more integrity courses. How stupid could I be?

    At the end of the day it’s a way to make money out of the existing pool of Master’s and get them more committed to getting more students, all dressed up with the noble intention to improve one’s integrity. My view is it further entrenches Masters within the cult as they confess their “out of integrity” stuff and unknowingly make themselves more vulnerable through the secrets they share.

    As for the results one person I know who has done integrity courses many times and is a successful recruiter of Avatar students has all the integrity of a snake crossed with a rutting goat. I have seen very little in terms of integrity improvement of the Masters I know who attend this course. Funny how over time most Masters become more and more selfish and less able to live a normal life.

    The Integrity Course is really just another tool of cult control and a way to extract money from well meaning people. Because the idea of increased integrity is such a noble idea you wont hear any Masters questioning it or admitting that they actually get sod all out of it. In fact if you did question the integrity of “The Integrity Course” you would be automatically calling your own integrity into question by projecting your own suspicious nature on to others. How’s that for a self protecting belief?

    Hope this helps.

    Toodle Pip

  185. Dear Aghast,

    Sorry to hear about your daughters decline after things were sounding so promising. My fortunes have turned around with my wife and I now reconciled, she went to attended a recent course but showed up with no prospects realising her limited beliefs and didn’t go through with the course, whether showing up empty handed embarrassed her or she was made to feel guilty I’m not sure. She had created the delusion at Wizards that I would be attending with her, I told her that after spending $50K, a destroyed family, finding herself now peddling outside a shopping mall and being reduced to a mindless drone while forsaking family was not my idea of enlightenment and that I had my own mind and able to think for myself. She has now elected to explore other paths. I see a real difference in her demeanour she seems happier and more real, almost a return to the person pre Avatar. I am still wary and hesitant to discuss it with her as she still possesses thought stopping beliefs and can view me as controlling and still in denial when confronted with real evidence of the cult like characteristics of Avatar.
    I have seen her reconnecting with family and friends and no longer viewing everyone she meets as a potential prospect. It is early days and the potential for relapse is still there, she is certainly conflicted but more awake. I not sure how long the recovery process will take if ever but at present things are looking up.

  186. Dear Observer
    The good news about your wife warms my heart old boy. News like this is verily a good medicine.

    I hope all goes well with your wife’s re-integration to normal life.

    Although not at all qualified in the area of helping people exit cults, from my own experience, I would prescribe lot’s of time for her healing to take place and would not advise stirring her up about the cult and its characteristics too soon as I fear she will have developed an unconscious and unhealthy immunity to most questioning of it.

    Pointing out anything that is loopy about it too early could have the effect of her seeing her doubt as one of those pesky secondaries. The danger here is that she could then use the tools to eliminate her doubts and end up right back in her previous state.

    Perhaps it would be better to let the noxious weeds in her mind planted by the cult to die from total lack of attention than to try and root them out.

    For me the willingness to explore the Bovine excrement I had been fed only developed after a prolonged period of no contact with the cult. They really did me a favour by dropping me like a hot potato.

    It scares the crap out of me that I still find an unnatural hesitancy against saying anything against Harry and his band of stupidly grinning pyshcophants. As I type I sometimes relive the agony of having to confess my bad mouthing of Harry etc on an integrity course or at Wizards. I suspect it is a just a disturbing cult hangover and I pray that your wife does not experience it anywhere near to the degree I have.

    Toodle Pip, and Fingers Crossed on your behalf.
    A rather hopeful Doctor.

  187. Yesterday, April 9th, 2011 I ran into a group attending the Avatar seminar. They were staying at the hotel I was visiting to eat at their great restaurant. Anyway, the lobby was mobbed and I saw one on one sessions taking place before and after my excellent repast.
    Anyway, I was handed a card by one of the attendees and decided to look into the organization. The young girl stated she was from Canada and the others were from all over the world ( Earth ). I also was informed that the cost for this was astounding plus lodging, food and travel. My skepticism went ballistic when my mind added up the total expense these people were paying and for what.
    This organization has to be given credit for making massive sums of money for those ready and willing to shell it out. Obviously, some have too much money and others not so lucky financially. Now to the point!
    Being a retired investigator for over 30 years and also a real estate agent, I have dealt with many people one on one and have attended college and improvement seminars. Some motivators can literally reach into your pocket and pull out the money before you can blink twice. Surprisingly, the best salesmen are in jail as they have the ability to get into the others’ minds so easily.
    As to the ( clients ) attendees who paid out the ghastly sums, which one would admit being taken for a ride after spending thousands of dollars. It’s like one of the problems with law enforcement when the damaged party is too ashamed to admit what has happened or fears the guilty party. One other thing puzzles me! Has anyone ever conducted a survey as to what percentage of ( clients ) students of this group has committed suicide?

  188. Dear observer,

    I am so glad to hear about the change in the state of play re your wife. It certainly sounds like very good news! Again while no expert about these things, the doctor’s prescription seems like a very good idea. I guess there came a point in her life when the gloss came off the whole idea. Here’s hoping she heads down the path of our good doctor and gets reconnected with all the important things in her life again.

    All the very best – I hope everything goes well.

  189. Mr. Schnalke,

    Avatars love to hand out their precious compassion cards. Each graduate of the course is given a pack of these cards as a reward for completing the course. Obviously, the goal is too spread the word about Avatar and recruit new suckers to the course. Oh, and after one has given out all cards received upon graduation, one must pay Harry Palmer to get more cards.

    Who knows how many might have committed suicide after the course? I can tell you that the Avatar organization could care less. I myself experienced a deep depression after the course. Having unqualified people dig into your personal life can have serious consequences. And finding out that your Avatar master and others deceived you and then kicked you to the curb because you weren’t buying what Avatar was selling, leaves one seriously questioning themself.

    Harry Palmer is a savvy business man who is good at brain-washing people. My advice to you is too take that compassion card you were given and throw it away and warn others about Avatar.

  190. Mr Schnalke and other esteemed watchers

    I too am interested in finding out if there have been any suicide attempts following an Avatar course. Earlier in this post I was trying to find out the number of people who had experienced some form of mental breakdown. I know personally of 3 cases where hospitalization was necessary for Avatar Masters and one for an Avatar student.

    The challenge here is that the Avatar Trainers don’t share this information with their team of Masters unless absolutely necessary. Any of this type of news is usually kept very hush hush.

    Any inquiries on “What happened to so and so? I haven’t seen or heard from them for a while” would be met with “You don’t want to put your attention on that”. It was like knowing that an Avatar Student or Master was struggling might be infectious.

    In Avatar, “Mental illness” would be seen as your own creation and you should dis-create it and move on. Having a mental breakdown would be seen as something you chose (by your knowing or unknowing adoption of beliefs) to experience. How screwed up is that???

    The Stigma of mental illness I imagine is a major barrier in people coming forward and saying “Hey I had a breakdown after my Avatar course”

    I observed a small number of students on nearly every course I was involved with experiencing mental instability during their 9 day experience. At the time it seemed that as people chose to explore their own consciousness they would stir up some unpleasant and resisted stuff from their past. It was therefore natural that some would have a strong emotional reaction to what they were facing.

    You can imagine that a student who has been physically abused or raped would experience a lot of negative emotion when and if they decided to explore this event and the impact it was having in their lives.

    Some of the students I worked with had the most horrific life experiences which they chose to apply the Avatar tools and processes to (some with seemingly great results). I had been indoctrinated into believing that the Avatar Tools would handle any situation if the student was willing to “go there”. I must have come down in the last shower!

    In hindsight I shudder when I think of the situations that I dealt with and with no training other than attending a Masters course and an unfailing belief in the tools to do their thing.

    Avatar Trainers and Masters I believe are now paying more attention to potential students with any pre-exisitng mental conditions and wont accept them on course without a note from their physician saying that it would be safe for them to attend.

    To this day I am still deeply concerned at the mental damage that Avatar Course does to some of its attendees.

    If the real numbers were known I am sure people would not be able to ignore the damage that this cult is doing.

    If any readers of this thread have an idea on how to collect data on the issues of Mental Instability, suicide attempts etc post Avatar, I’d love to hear them.

    In the mean time the Doctor prescribes a healthy dose of common sense to anybody toying with the idea of getting involved with this cult. Ignore it at your peril.

    Toodle Pip.
    The Doctor.

  191. Since I was prescribed anti-depressants by my doctor, I had to get a note from my doctor before I could start the course. My master said without this note, I would be turned away immediately from starting the course. It seemed ridiculous to me (and my doctor) to even have to supply a note. My first question was why? I never got a firm answer from anyone at Avatar.

    I should of listened to my common sense from the start and I could of avoided that whole Avatar mess. But when your “friend” manipulates you into the course when you are vulnerable and depressed, it is easy to ignore one’s common sense and better judgement…a mistake I will never make again. Lesson learned the hard way.

  192. Dear Avatar is a joke

    The reason for you requiring permission from a Doctor is quite simple. If your Doctor says its OK for you to go exploring your consciousness then it’s not Avatar’s fault if you become unstable (and you are likely to) when a well meaning Master tramples around in your consciousness with you wearing metaphorical hob nailed boots.

    The bottom line is, that it is a way to protect themselves from liability. You have to sign on the bottom of the course registration form that you are declaring any of these pesky problems.

    The trainers now know due to the large numbers of people who have come unglued on their courses that people with “mental or emotional” issues are risky. (I guess by today’s standards that makes about 25% of the general population a risk)

    They also pay particular attention now to people who have been the subject of a violent attack or traumatic incident. This is because people who have had these unfortunate situations in their past will likely encounter some extreme reaction to the past incidents on the course. A common thing to happen here is that people become extremely unstable (ungrounded in Avatar parlance) and often have a reaction that makes them appear to leave their bodies. The theory here would be that one way of handling extreme abuse is to mentally leave your body so you don’t have to be present and feel it. I have personally experienced it on an Avatar course and the sensation is quite weird. Its like you are fully conscious but you cannot feel your body or control it. The mind is alert but the body is in a zombie like state. If you saw Casey Abrams on American idol on the night the judges saved him you will have seen the sort of reaction I am referring to. He was unable to control his body and you could see that he lost feeling in his hands for a period of time.
    This type of occurrence in Avatar is reasonably frequent and there are specific process that a Master follows to help people get (back in their bodies) back in control.

    Again the Doctor prescribes a handful of “Be very careful” pills for anyone considering Avatar whose consciousness is anything other than robust. It’s best not to play with fire unless you are willing to get burned as a consequence.

    Toodle Pip
    The Doctor.

  193. Dear Dr.

    That is frightening stuff. My fear is someday, someone is going to “lose it” at a course and harm others.

    In my case, I never experienced any of the things you described. I did see many others going on emotional roller-coasters during the course. Lots of crying, talking to themselves, etc. It was all very unsettling to see. My post Avatar depression had more to do with how my master had screwed with me emotionally before and during the course. And not to mentioned put me in a very embarrassing position by forcing a painful secret out of me. This was a person I thought I could trust; who then betrayed that trust. It hurt deeply. And then being kicked to the curb by Avatar trainers and left a psychological mess only pissed me off.

    Thankfully, some time has helped me put my Avatar experience behind me. But I will never forget that Avatar, Harry Palmer and his trainers are fakes. I feel sorry for those good people who have fallen victim to Harry and his devious ways.

  194. Dear Avatar is a joke

    I am terribly sorry about your experience. Being betrayed under those circumstances must have been extremely painful.

    As you say hopefully no-one will go “postal” on a course and harm others.

    Although I witnessed a few people losing it on course during my time fortunately no-one ever did anyone else any harm. Mostly it seems that the tendencies that show up are more self destructive.

    Thankfully you escaped the cult early enough to avoid the widespread damage experienced by some of us and only spent a small fortune rather than a large one.

    May others take note of your experience and avoid Avatar like the plague.

    The Doctor

  195. Hey Rolan,

    I’m not sure if this is OK old chap but can I post a link to an excerpt from a TV Documentary “How To Spot A Cult”.


    Also did you know?

    Monthly Google searches for Avatar rate as follows:

    Avatar Course 1900
    Avatar Courses 2400
    Harry Palmer 6600
    Avatar Masters 12100
    Avatar EPC 1600
    AvatarEPC 1600

    in contrast there are very low scores for the following:
    Avatar Cult 590
    Avatar Scam 210

    I’d recommend anyone considering doing the Avatar course Google search “10 questions to ask before you take the Avatar course” and read all that this site has to offer.

    If you still want to do the course after reading this site then you would have a natural immunity to the Doctor’s “anti stupidity” pills and you will be a perfect candidate for the next course.

    Toodle Pip
    The Doctor

  196. That link is entirely appropriate to this thread, Dr S. And thanks for continuing to share your knowledge and experience of this mob – forewarned is fore-armed.


  197. Dear Rolan and Friends,

    I want to express my thanks to all of you on this thread who have expressed balanced,rational views about the Avatar Cult and it`s devious methods,based on your own personal first hand experiences or that of a partner or close family member. I have read and reread your stories since the beginning of February,and related to much of your information,be it fortunate or unfortunate i`m not exactly sure…

    My partner of 15 years has been involved with the Avatar courses since 2004. I watched her whip herself into a frenzy while desperately searching for someone-or even some loan organisation-to give her the money to go to the courses. This behavior occured at least 2 or three times over the years.Except for the first expensive(pre-master)course of $1500 for which her brother gave her the money(he`s never done avatar),the money for the Master and Wizard course was loaned to her by at least two different “Masters”,most recently $10,000 for the Wizard course,to be paid back in 4 years. And,i might add,we`re not generating any major fortunes between us – often scrambling just to pay utility bills.

    Yes, I have spent countless hours over these past months-and indeed years- trying to get through her thick,avatar conditioned skull trying to make her understand that she is a drug addict,or cult addict if you prefer. I have gone through severe emotional disturbances,similar to what occurs when a major relationship breaks up because of an affair. I have expressed how shattered I am to have her disregard and just plain ignore my concern and emotional distress,to the point of feeling like I was close to being commited to hospital.

    Now,there is a child involved in this situation. Our daughter is 13 and,as you can easily figure,both her mother and I have a strong
    connection to her. So it`s not easy to physically or geographically separate from this disturbance.

    Anyhow,rather than needlessly ramble on any further,I`ll get on out of here,at least for the time being…just wanted to check in on this wonderful thread. Many of you have helped me to get through the winter,Rolan,the good Doctor,Avatar is a joke,and Observer,just to name a few.

    til next time

  198. Hi Scamatar,
    I can relate to the feeling like your partner is having an affair that is exactly how it feels, full of lies and secrets. It is definitely like living with an addict, as a Cult expert told me, you feel like grabbing them and shaking them but it is pointless, the decision to give up must be theirs.
    Financially now we are broke and my wife is looking at working at the local supermarket to help pay the bills, what a great reality she has created for herself (LOL). The only real realities that get created are to attend the next course or to start recruiting.
    It is sad when children are involved, HP and his cronies use your love for your family and your children against you and you find yourself in the most hopeless and powerless situation. Be careful usually when kids turn about 12 these morons try and drag them along to a course. Children are smart they don’t have crazy adult hang ups so don’t be too concerned, kid’s are self centred and don’t fully develop a frontal lobe until their early to mid twenties.
    Yes at times you do feel like you are the one going crazy but your not. I spoke to psychologist who has dealt with cults before (you need to find one that has, look around) he vindicated my belief about what was happening to my wife/life. His advice was to do your homework in regard to your family and go and see a family lawyer, find out exactly what will really happen to you financially and to your children, also be prepared that the person you knew before may never return. Personally I came to the realisation that the person I first met and married had gone and set myself a time frame for it to end or to step away and get on with my life. Be satisfied and ensure that you have played 4 full quarters, be prepared that you may have lost the premiership. Right now work hard on your relationship with your children they love you not the fact your in a relationship with their mother. My children are still young and as I said to my wife you will not only be judged now but also in the future by your children and others.
    HP’s game is all about power or empowering people to behave independently especially of others who will be seen as controlling, in a relationship you should be interdependent not independent. As a result your emotional feelings are of little concern to her and are usually met with something stupid like you need to do Avatar to deal with them. I decided to let my wife go and wished her all the best in the new life that she had chosen if that is what she really wanted, after all she was behaving totally independent of our family anyway. She kept banging on about her children and family being her inspiration, but this was not reflected in her actions, she was living in her mind. I explained that I spoke to a lawyer and new exactly what would happen to the children and I had accepted this and was getting on with a normal life. I figured that the kids would eventually see through this BS as she had little time for them now as she now had to care for everyone on the planet and go about creating an EPC.
    As I stated in an earlier post, spending $50K, destroyed family and finding your self peddling outside shopping malls wasn’t my idea of enlightenment. I think also that showing up at a course empty handed she finally realised that there was a limit to her beliefs. I also asked her if she could do me a favour and introduce one of our friends that I never really liked to Avatar, I said to her if anyone deserved to have their life screwed up they did (LOL). Anyway she has woken up for the time being, it’s been nearly 4 weeks Avatar free with only a minor lapse.
    A quote that sums up the stupid mindset that is required: “The best advice regarding contact and connection is always GO FOR IT! Be bold. Any temporary pain of embarrassment (and there may be none) cannot begin to compare to the regret for a life of missed opportunities. Don’t hang back. Step up; make contacts and connections. You’re not taking a survey on what people think of you. You’re on a mission to create an enlightened planetary civilization. Live boldly.”
    – The Avatar Masters Handbook.

    Good luck…

  199. I might add that my master told me that Avatar was an avenue to make more money in one’s life because of the self-knowledge and confidence one gains from the tools…yeah right. The only ones making more money in their lives because of Avatar are Harry, Avra and a few high-end trainers. Oh, and the airlines, hotels, restaurants, etc who cash in from Avatar cult members who return time and time again to the same courses.

  200. Hi Observer,

    Fortunately,my partner has never peddled schmavatar in public(as far as I know…)

    My problem stems from seeing through organised religions,cults,sects,etc for what they are : manipulative,controlling enterprises. For me this is little difference between a “born-again” christian and a “born-again” avatar,muslim,jew,scientologist,jehovah`s witness,etc. A person can be compassionate,caring and confident without having the crutch of religion or other “crowd control” orgs. It is my right as an individual to decide what I choose to allow in my house,just as it is other peoples right to allow,accept or encourage what they have in theirs.

    Now,if my partner lives by and with her avatar books and tools then that is purely HER choice. But,as you well know,when familial trust and mutual finances are used and abused in order to(as is previously stated by Avatar is a joke) fill the bank accounts of people like Harry and his cronies,then I have to protest and,if possible,separate and/or remove myself from this abuse.

    Here is one of my favourite explanations of Avatar,by a former french Master :

    “Avatar was for me a process of awakening my awareness of the silly ignorance and extraordinary despair shared by human beings in our time; their stupidity equaled only by their naivety;their need to be acknowledged,which removes their common sense,and their desire to be loved. I saw people being taken for god. Taken entirely over the edge for months at a time. And afterwards,that turned to disaster…
    Avatar stirs up many illusions. And you gain neither understanding,nor solace,nor control of things. Avatar promises all. However,Avatar does not exist,it is an illusion. It is a thousand year-old teaching with nice packaging.”

    til next time

  201. However dorky and ridiculous Harry Palmer seems, his organisation has managed to convince over 100,000 people to pay for his confidential techniques which offer to some the hope of self improvement and to others Enlightenment.

    A whole organisation of voluntary workers paying blind obedience to a guy of proven moral deficiency boggles the mind. Even when faced with evidence of this many Avatars manage to write it off as a mistake.

    If every Avatar Master you met was mentally retarded then it would be easier to poo poo Harry’s materials as a bunch of powerless fairy tales.
    However you will encounter Doctors, University Graduates, and successful business people as part of the network.

    For me the successful and credible people I encountered on my first Avatar Course reduced the impact of the nutty freaks. I had no information on Harry or his previous connections with Scientology which would have had me run a mile. People I trusted told me that Avatar had nothing to do with Scientology and the fact that Harry had turned his back on it actually scored him brownie points in my book. I didn’t realize that he had left owing thousands of dollars of courses to unhappy customers.

    I decided to do the Avatar course on the recommendation of a business colleague and did not attend one of the intro evenings which would have alerted me to its nuttiness.

    It was my fault for not doing the due diligence and when I turned up I thought I was attending a course put on by a credible business and got a huge surprise when I realised that I was making out my cheque to an individual and not to the Avatar organisation.

    Had I not been attending with a couple of business colleagues and some other people that I knew, I think I would have bailed out at the start but my desire not be be seen as a quitter had me hang in there and give it a go.

    I encountered plenty of kookiness on the first couple of days and took plenty of opportunity to mock and scoff at some of the things I heard. However the exercises I did on the first two days gave me some great personal insights and some tangible gains that were hard to deny.

    After the first two days and my early gains I was an easy target. At a time when I wanted to quit a Master said to me “Is this wanting to quit a life pattern for you?(It was) Isn’t this something you would like to handle? (Of course I did) After all that’s what you are here for isn’t it? Aren’t you here to handle those things that get in the way of living the kind of life you’d prefer? Don’t throw away the tremendous gains you have already made by quitting now. I am here to support you to go for what you want in life not to support your existing limitations. Let’s use the tools to handle what you are experiencing right now and you’ll get to move through that feeling and no longer be a slave to it” At that point I guess the seduction was complete and I had started the journey where anything that I was experiencing that would get in the way of me moving forward was handled with the tools. Doing this was incredibly successful at breaking down my resistances over time and overriding what my critical thinking was telling me. I had the experience of overcoming any upset that came up and feeling calm and chilled out when I had successfully handled it with the guidance of a Master.

    The experience of overcoming upsets and mental turbulence for me was the start of an addiction for “The Tools” and being on a course. I didn’t realise at the time that the exercises were capable of having the body release natural painkillers and as a result creating an induced sense of wellbeing.

    The personal drive to rid myself of unpleasant feelings or patterns of behaviour became the craving that only Avatar could satisfy. You can see why Avatar people review the course many many times. It’s where you get your fix.

    It’s only a small step from wanting to return to the course to regain your feelings of Euphoria and “All is well with me” to being told “You should do the Masters course, you’ll get some great new tools and you’ll get to learn how to help others achieve that feeling too”

    The first time user of Avatar easily becomes the addict (or course junkie). They are peddled the drug under cleverly misleading brand names like “Living Deliberately”, “Create what you prefer” and “I decide”.

    It’s usually not long before the addict wants to share the drug with their friends and family. As soon as they have done that they will have made a successful transition from addict to pusher.

    Sensible people don’t willingly become drug addicts but if you can get them to try some in a moment of weakness or vulnerability you will be surprised at how easily it is to get them to throw their lives away in pursuit of their next fix.

    Have compassion for the people who succumbed to the Avatar drug. Many of them were hooked at a moment when vulnerable or weak and nearly all of them got hooked believing that it would set them free not enslave them. Now they believe they are not addicts but enlightened beings.

    The Doctor prescribes love and compassion for friends and family members caught in the Avatar addiction. The poor souls don’t know they are addicts and until they realise they are they are practically impossible to help.

    Toodle pip

  202. After reading the various comments from those who have spent alot of money on the Avatar courses, I’ve drawn an analogy. I now believe these instructors ( Maters etc ) are no more than timeshare salesmen. They are trained to answer any questions or negative feelings. Though not much less than the past Jonestown debacle, the students are ready to accept what’s put in front of them for self-fulfillment. What a pity the monies spent here could not be used to help people with serious physical problems and diseased bodies.

  203. Yes, Facebook is turning into a wonderful marketing tool for Avatars to recruit new members. I expect compassion cards to start being included in the Sunday newspaper advertisements, along with the name of your local Master to contact for a free introduction.

  204. Hi Doc,

    Yes difficult to question when you come across educated people on a course, but understand that there is no relationship between intelligence and personality. Many intelligent people have weird personalities. The only part of you that cults work on is changing your personality and therefore your beliefs. You create what is termed pseudo-personality, it is pseudo because it’s not who you really are but have been to convinced to adopt it through a process of introjections. They suppress you real personality using techniques such as getting you to review your past especially if you are a bit vulnerable at the time and they convince you that you no longer want to be that person, and instil new ideas and beliefs. Hence as we all know people who do Avatar have changed in their personality and become a different person, good or bad. The trick is to find the original personality which maybe buried very deeply and start the person having conversations with it.


  205. Hi Observer

    Your observation about personality change is a good one. People usually get involved in these so called self improvement movements because of their desire to change who they are.
    I remember Avatar Masters promising lasting change rather than just another set of asserted affirmations or a new set of beliefs to wallpaper over some old ones.
    For me the idea of truly transformational change was extremely attractive. The idea that I could rid myself of some of the shackles of the past seemed very appealing.
    I spent countless hours using Avatar tools to dis-create stuff. The drawback is that now I find that I not only dis-created aspects of myself that I viewed negatively but seem to have done such a thorough job that I have huge gaps in my recollection of who I actually was.

    Possibly it is just age and too many Brandys and some cigar fog that have me perceiving a change of mental acuity but I do having a gnawing disquiet about the damage I may have done to my grey matter by using the Avatar tools.

    Pity they don’t come with a warranty or some form of consumer protection.

    For those considering a spot of mind bending at the hands of an Avatar Master the Doctor prescribes a big dose of Caveat Emptor at the first onset of any wallet opening symptoms.

  206. Why? Why is this Avatar scheme sounding more like am Email from Nigeria?

  207. Dear William
    E-mail schemes from Nigeria are pretty harmless in the scheme of things. Only a few fools have been parted from their money and these cons are usually based on greed.

    Avatar however has over 100,000 graduates that have parted with their hard earned or stupidly borrowed cash.

    The unfortunate con here is that Avatar doesn’t appeal to one’s greed but one’s desire to improve one’s self and also fellow man.

    All who get taken by the Nigerian e-mail Scam experience the loss of cash and a sense of shame at having been suckered.

    Avatar manages to escape the “Scam” label because of the number of satisfied customers appear to out number amongst those like me who would now rather remove their left testicle with a piece of rusty sheet metal than recommend someone do the course.

    I think the tragedy here is that Avatar manages to recruit hundreds of prospects each month and maintain an “under the radar” status.

    If I decide to smoke, the Surgeon General has decided that I should receive a health warning that Smoking Kills.

    It’s only fair then as a self appointed and completely unqualified medical professional that I offer the following advice:
    WARNING. Use of the confidential Avatar materials under the supervision of licensed Avatar Masters has caused the following side effects in some customers; Emotional instability, psychotic breaks, personality fragmentation, financial loss, relationship breakdowns and alienation from family and friends.

  208. Hi Doc and William,
    You are both right Avatar is a scam that takes advantage of vulnerable people wether they are driven by greed, ignorance or a desire to improve themselves. The difference between HP’s scam and that of the Nigerian bank scam is that those that do Avatar are not only victims but also become perpetrators. This is the whole point of the Avatar scam, initially sell people simple expensive short term meditation tools but then get them to attend further expensive courses that are designed to get them to on sell the product. Once you get them to invest money and self esteem in the product they are less likely to ever deny it as a useless short term fix to there problems. They must remain in the fold for the shit to work, while at the same time isolate themselves from friends and family.
    We are confronted with scams everyday scepticism is a healthy filter to apply to anything that professes to be the answers to all problems. HP’s Avatar course provides a nice fill in for those without faith in the God of gaps but who fear the emptiness in their lives.
    Think of all the mistakes you have made in your life but feel you have still arrived, stop chasing the void and enjoy the Brandy and Cigars. That’s the key.


  209. Warning from the Sturgeon General’s Office – Warning! Warning!
    Avatar may be dangerous to your wealth!

  210. Hi Scamatar,
    For some reason I only read your last post a few days ago, I agree with you why do you have to belong to or believe in something to lead an ethical life what’s wrong with the comfort of common sense and reason? Simple tenants such as honesty, love and forgiveness do me fine.
    For myself after a small break from the Avatar BS in our lives once again my wife has sadly fallen back into her addiction, so back to a rollercoaster of personalities. I noticed HP has put out a new book, nothing new really just a rehash of his already published dribble, Wifey is feverishly reading it as if there will be some startling insight somewhere , the problem is the paper it is printed on is too rough for what it should really be used for.
    Nicky stated in a post a while ago “It is ridiculous to me whenever I see all these people from avatar embracing each other and denying the fact that they are never going to experience any negativity in their lives. Nature is simple and beautiful but it is selfish and cruel at the same time.” The whole positive thinking movement gained speed in the 1980’s when American corporations adopted it and were down sizing and fancy that’s when HP concocted Avatar, Barbara Ehrenreich describes this delusion of continued positive thinking well in her book “Smile or Die: How Positive Thinking Fooled America and the World” or YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJGMFu74a70
    William you are right the pink Cadillac’s are missing, Mary Kay I think gave them to her top sales people in her MLM empire, HP is too tight I suppose.
    Cheers all and keep this thread alive!

  211. Hi Observer,

    As long as the human being has the need to feel superior,powerful,more special and better or in some way “above” the rest of those sad,misguided,average folks like you and me,so called “spiritual” organisations will thrive to some degree. To simply accept one`s self and history is,for many,not so easy and painless. So,naturally(or un-naturally),we are constantly looking for the “key” to happiness,enlightenment,compassion,etc. It is not enough just to be yourself,a “new” you must be created,the “old” you “discreated”. To do this by being indoctrinated and “trained” by ANY organisation built upon overblown subjective promotion,lies,and undeniable mind control exercises is,plain and simple,the act of a desperate person. The people who work for Star`s Edge are performing and teaching people how to mentally and financially rape themselves and others,and not be held accountable for the after effects on these individuals and those closest to them.

    take care, til next time

  212. Observer, trust me, the paper HP’s books are printed on are not too rough to use for what you thinking!

    It was exactly one year ago that I was introduced (or recruited) to Avatar. My soon-to-be master was talking about attending the popular summer International Course in Orlando. My master had succeeded in planting the seed of curiosity in my head about this Avatar stuff as I began researching it in preparation for my attending the Fall course. What can I say? I was vulnerable at the time and my master knew it and took advantage of the opportunity to lie and seduce me. One year later and I feel somewhat vindicated as I was smart enough to not pay a cent to my master or Harry. My master made a serious error and I seized the opportunity to give myself a full refund. I do regret having wasting my time at the course because it is simply bullshit. It is sad how easily innocent people can be manipulated…shame on you Harry Palmer and the rest of your warped team for taking advantage of people’s vulnerability…all in the name of the almight dollar.

  213. Hi, First of all : sorry for my English.
    I didn’ t do the Avatar Course. But I spent the last three night without sleeping, because I can’t stop searching for avatar informations and beacuse my ex boyfriend left me, yesterday. He became a Master two weeks ago in Orlando.
    Probably my relationship would have finished anyway, 2 years of I “love you” and “I don’t love u anymore” and so on..Only now I realize that he is really really weak and he has a very fragile personality.
    At the beginnnigs I Did’nt pay so much attention to his Avatar’interest.
    When he told me, after the 2 days course, the decision about leaving for Holland for a one week course I sterted to be worried.
    But during the first course, and after, he seemed very happy, passionated and our relationship was good .
    Then the second course, the Internetional in Orlando.
    He asked for money to everyone: family, me, friends, he stole some things etc.
    When he was there I felt that something was wrong, was strange.
    He came back quite another person, in two week we couldn’t speak about nothing but Avatar. The exercises, his excitment, his new friends, his new family. He spent all days on fb chatting with people on the other side of the world, those who calls “brother and sisters, enlighted beings”. Back from the course he created a Primary: Find and take with him 4 students on the next course of Orlando. Obviously he tried with every force to convince me to go with him. “I want you to be my first student”. I knew what I had to do since the beginnig: avatar is not for me. His pressions, his absence, the fear of loosing him, the fact that he was so changed and obsessed made this month of June the worst in my life!
    I love this guy, really, I love him since two years.I didn’t realize the danger of this thing and I let him to introduce the first mini course to me and a friend of mine. We didn’t chanced opinion. He asked me to do some exercise and to speak with a qualified master on skype, he carried me immediatly to renew my passport and told me to EXPLORE all my rsources to find 4000 euro to go with him. I do not have these money. I would never ask my family or friends all this money..for what?! I did everything he asked me to do.
    Finally last week I told him that I didn’t want to go with him. He became very agressive and angry, he shouted (he never does ). He accused me to be scared about changement, he told me tha I arleady had the money if i wanted. I tried to speak with him, after a while he seemed he had understood my position.
    Two other days during which we fight for everything, I couldn’t say anything because all my feekings, my dudes, all of all were my secondaries.
    He left my (our home) two days ago, yesterday he told me that we can stay together, two days ago he loved me and is leaving me!
    I don’t think it is all because of Avatar, absolutely not, but I saw his changments, is ego growing and growing, his money disappear, his obsession . This thing is scaring.
    His primary has failed, he has not found anyone for Orlando, he said because his he has some secondaries.
    Probably he has to take another course to quit them, in fact he want to go to another course on August.
    Sounds strange..If you are an Avatar, a Master Avatar and you create your personal world on your new beliefs i would be pretty simple to find 4 avatar student.
    Now I am really sad an I fell guilty beacuse i didn’t realize that Avatar is a cult and I didn’t do enough to prevent this.
    I am really sad because my love isn’t here anymore.
    But I am happy that I didn’t give up only to follow the person I love. I have the control of my mind and my feelings, I have not to discreate them to be a better person or happier.
    I am a free person. With a broken heart but free : )
    Thanks for this blog.

  214. Don’t worry about your English, Elle – grammar etc is incidental when you express yourself perfectly, straight from the heart, as you have here. I found your comment very poignant.

    I’ll leave others to make specific comments on Avatar – I’ve made it clear what I think of this mob. I’m just sorry that so much ‘collateral damage’ is done to those close to the victims they ensnare.

    Anyway, for what it’s worth, I have no doubt you’ve made the right choice. All the best to you.


  215. Dear Elle,

    Your story is an all to familiar one. That is what Avatar does to people like your boyfriend…manipulates and controls them like puppets on a string. I wish I could offer you advice on how to communicate on the proper level with your boyfriend, but as long as he is under the spell of Harry Palmer and his Avatar cult, just let him be. Nothing you can say or do will change his mind. Take heart in the fact that you are strong enough to realize that Avatar is a cult and a scam.

    Best of luck.

  216. Dear Elle,

    I am sorry for the pain of your broken relationship but I am so glad that you managed to avoid being lured in to doing the course for yourself and quite possibly becoming the latest person on the planet to be seduced by Avatar.

    Thank you for your post as the more people get to share their negative experiences of contact with this “money making, enlightenment at a price” Cult the more their true nature gets known.

    If only I had found a BLOG like this one before I attended my first Avatar course. I might have saved myself thousands of wasted dollars pursuing what seemed like a noble cause but what turned put to be a very damaging time at the hands of the cult’s Puppet Masters.

    The Masters and Trainers from Holland are amongst the most successful in Harry Palmers empire.You have done well to escape their clutches.

    Best Wishes
    The Doctor

  217. Hi Elle,
    I feel extremely sorry for you for what has happened to you and the loss of your relationship.
    Interesting what you say about your boy friend becoming more aggressive and yelling at you something he would not have previously done, I have had a lot of the same my wife and I fight a lot more, I think she gets frustrated when she has to think for herself and no longer is able to give answers that she has learnt or repeated from the Avatar material, recently she physically assaulted me for telling her the truth that didn’t match the delusion about herself, something that would never have happened pre Avatar. The biggest problem for me is the inconsistent personality you now have to deal with.
    Thank you for being so honest about your experience.


  218. Dear Observer,

    I am really glad of your answer. I have read all your posts since the beginning and I felt really sorry for your wife but most of all for you. I don’t really know how you could have accepted so patiently a situation like that, but obviously we are talking about your family..

    I really identified my self in what you told, and this let me understand that I am not crazy and that the Avatars have all the same disconcerting behaviour, ignoring the feeling of those who love them. Thank you because I feel really bad in theese days, I often cry but reading You, Rolan, The Doctor and Avatar is a joke, made me also laugh a lot!

    In your words I’ve understood that you know a lot of things about Avatar and cults in general, that you are really informed about that, I would like to ask you if you can suggest me other web adresses in which I could find any further information.

    I hope that one day your wife will wake up and realize what she is loosing.Do You remember that in the end of Toy story Woody manages to restart Buzz? : )

    Thank you again for all your answers, for anyone that shares his experience and most of alla thank you to Rolan that is keeping alive this thread.

    The best to you Observer

  219. I notice in my latest update from the Avatar Network that 2 of the key Cult leaders in Australia and New Zealand are noticeably absent, and one of them is now looking for jobs in the real world.

    Several of the Masters who were in the network with me in the early 2000’s are still filling their lowly positions and paying fees for endless internships. I guess their Primaries to be employed by Stars Edge as Trainers just keep hitting secondaries.

    Ahhhhhh to be on the bones of your arse 10 years later and not having climbed the pyramid must be such an encouragement!

    Avatar Masters, may you be happy and well in spite of your delusion.

    The Doctor prescribes the following drill to handle your discouragement:

    Take a walk and repeat the following phrase until you wake the hell up.

    “I am deluded and a disciple of a clever cult leader. My endless struggle to create students is a result of an actual physical universe reality, not the result of a failed primary. My current financial situation and the broken relationships in my life are a result of my own stupidity. Harry gets rich while I struggle. WHAT THE F…???”

  220. Folks, as you’ll have noticed I’ve recently changed my blog theme, and I’ve also changed the blog permalinks structure. This has been disruptive in some ways, and has resulted in a drastic drop in the daily hit rate. These things are temporary, thankfully, but perhaps more far-reaching than I’d thought.

    Tonight I received an email from a poster enquiring whether I’d chosen not to publish his post to this thread due to its hard-hitting content. As the regulars will be aware, I do not censor posts, regardless of content (spam and nuisance posts unrelated to the topic excepted, of course). This poster’s writings did not reach me. I don’t know why – it might have been a one-off glitch.

    I’d appreciate it if you let me know via email (see Contact link at top of page: horizontal bar) if any of your posts are not published soon after you send them through. If there is some technical issue messing with the Comments functions, I need to know about it ASAP so I can set about chasing down a fix.

    Thanks all and cheers!

  221. Intelligence please don’t measure it by profession ie well lots of doctors lawyers company directors do avatar, must be good they are booked learned not life learned, the most vulnerable people in the world are professionals . Have a crisis floods fire earthquakes who are there rebuilding peoples lives the ordinary hard working compassionate human beings that is not learnt it’s within you it’s around you it cost you $000 nothing observe the mothers Teresa’s of the world the cost of my love is no charge. Harry the cost of his love $$$$ more fool you to be pulled in to a money making scam led by time share salesman, it’s not that hard to be a good human being with compassion it should not cost you $$$ if it does beware R

  222. Folks, if you’ve opened up this thread in the last 48 hours you’ll have noted that the comments have not been visible. I’m trialling a new comments application (see home page) that needs some adjusting – all issues should now be resolved in the next 24 hours. In the meantime, I’ve switched back to the original comments system, and you should now be able to see all comments.

    Will need to reactivate the new app late tonight (Perth time) so the engineers can finish working on it, but should be fully functional by Friday morning.


  223. I have just received in the mail my invitation to attend the Wizards course in Daytona Beach in 2011. Ahhhhh the mind bending memories….

    In the brochure there is a piece on Entities which is one of the most controversial areas of Avatar from Avatar watchers or bashers. Strangely enough, by the time you get to the Wizards course you will have already had a minimum of 18 days of brainwashing so Harry could turn up in a Pink Cadillac naked and wearing lots of bling and most people there wouldn’t see anything unusual about it.

    What you get promised in the brochure is the ability to locate and handle entity influences. Many Avatar bashers make a big deal out of this from one of Harry’s earlier Wizard Course speeches about their origin being from the planet Estro. Avatar graduates are mostly unaware of this as it doesn’t get any airtime within Avatar these days.

    The Entity Handling Procedure has the goal of eliminating entity influences from someone. Entities could be placed in the same categories that Judeo Christian religions would call demons. Harry’s EHP is a fancy new age version of old fashioned Christian exorcisms of demons. One of the differences here is that the EHP is run by an Avatar Master and is supposedly in the control of the person who it is being run on as long as they can maintain neutral attention (most church based exorcisms occur when the victim (or as Avatar would put it, the Host) no longer have control and are being controlled by the demon/spirit.entity.

    I have observed both in action and all I would say is that the phenomena in both cases is very observable and pretty darn weird. Many Christians label the phenomena as demon possession which sound scary but Avatar calls the same phenomena “Troublesome entities”.

    Infallible Harry designed a process for releasing these entities back in the early 90’s on his first Wizards course, but had to rewrite it as people were ending up more screwed up mentally than when they started.

    Regardless of what you believe about the phenomena it is an amusing thing to observe 2000 people in a large conference room all running a procedure (in pairs) to release troublesome entities from each other.
    Watch out potential Wizards, the beliefs Harry plants in his loyal followers get wackier at each level and if you really opened your eyes you would see how many beliefs Harry and his cult masters have indoctrinated into you.

    Instead of visiting Daytona for Wizards I suggest you go there for the motor racing or to drive on the beach. Avoid Harry and the Wizards course and the wacky TV evangelists of Orlando. They all peddle beliefs to the unsuspecting and get rich at the expense of the vulnerable the same time. A shameful behaviour for any so called spiritual practice.

    Right, time for a Brandy and a Cigar!

  224. Avatar never sends me anything in the mail anymore. 🙁 Ok, that is sarcasm but I guess Harry blacklists those that were intelligent enough to not fall victim to his brainwashing. Seriously, since I had a falling out with my master, I no longer hear a thing from Avatar…no brochures in the mail, no emails, nothing.

    And this EHP sounds like another ridiculous, ludacris exercise that Harry dreamed up while rolling around naked with Avra in all the money they have suckered out of people. The sad part is Harry and his trainers just don’t care if these exercises affect his devotees in a negative way. We can say it over and over and over again but please, to anyone considering this scam crap, turn around and run fast from the person or persons trying to sell Avatar to you.

  225. Sorry to change tack here rolan but im sure we can fit some room in for Landmark Education Forum too.
    typically they have been sprouting all their friends and family and my ex tells me my daughters best friends parents are involved (people i know).
    so i send them a note telling them they can do what they like but dont start pushing to my family. well next thing i know is they are sending their 10 yo daughter to weekend bootcamps. im horrified.
    i cant believe they are now running course for 8-12 year olds to be enlightened on world views and be a more complete person!
    8-12 year olds!!!! i just want mine to enjoy being a kid and learning resourcefulness in a healthy way not some business cult. god anthony robbins will be running 8 YO courses next! how young is too young? why arent we programming them from embryo im wondering? ha dont be facitious….they are probably planning that as i write!
    they also learn to appreciate their parents.
    my daughters friend (10) is telling her how fantastic it is going to be!
    notwithstanding my daughter and i have had some good little conversations around this and how unreasourceful it is in a fun safe way.
    now her friend having been to several weekends doesnt like it and has endorsed what conversations ive had with my daughter. parents still like it though. result….i think one real dyfunctional family.
    anyway its all on their landmark education websites! please read about their courses for kids. unbelievable that people are so needy and gullible!
    hey they will even fix my business ive found out!!!

  226. Hi ASterpin.

    Of course, no worries about changing tack. I said ages ago I was going to do a post on Landmark, but never got around to it. Since it’s now relevant, I’ll do it right here, right now.

    I did the Landmark Forum quite a few years ago now, then followed up with the next two courses. The Forum was conducted over a weekend, was full on, and I found it a very worthwhile experience. There was a free follow-up course called ‘Forum in Action’ comprising one 3 hour session per week, for 10 weeks. Fantastic value for money – gotta give them that. Of course, they were setting the hook, but there was still plenty of good stuff to be had for those interested in clarifying and applying aspects of the Forum.

    The pressure to proselytize and recruit, as well as becoming actively involved as a volunteer assistant, started during the 10 week ‘Forum in Action’ period. I resisted this largely, although I did rave about the Forum to a few friends of my own accord, and one ended up doing it some months later. He also got a lot out of it, so I was fine with that.

    During the ‘Forum in Action’ sessions, the group leader was clearly charged with selling us the next level ‘Advanced’ course, which was a lot more expensive (what a surprise!). I signed up on the promise that this next course was “far more powerful than the Forum”, and again, did not regret it.

    In fact, I went on to do the third, MUCH more expensive S.E.L.P. program (can’t remember what that stands for), on the promise of “living a life more powerful than you can even dream of” or some such shit.

    It wasn’t anywhere near as well run as the previous two courses, but I did complete a self-set project that pushed me out of my comfort zone (in a good way) to an extent I would not have even entertained prior to doing the course. The project was extremely successful, so the Landmark ‘technology’ as they call it, did work in application. It was basically a combination of group motivation (very compelling), confidence-building and the usual NLP stuff (ie: creating your world through words of affirmation and envisioning).

    I have nothing against these techniques. They can work. However, Landmark does have all the hallmarks of a cult. You know, code in the form of specialist terminology that is only understandable by the initiated, a subtle ‘them’ vs ‘us’ sub-text, and a hierarchy within the organisation that gradually asserts itself the longer you hang around.

    During the third course, I began to become aware of this hierarchy, and it was difficult to avoid being sucked in. I continued to refuse requests to do Landmark volunteer work during weekends etc, but the pressure was relentless. I started to feel ethically obligated to volunteer, and to recruit (eg: typical pitch – “Why would you want to deny people you care for the power you have found from the Landmark technology?”).

    Towards the end of the third course, I noticed some people putting shit on friends who refused to “do” Landmark, and adopting an attitude of superiority towards anyone who had not had the vast benefits of ‘the technology’. Others would stand before the group and declare how they ‘stood for’ getting this or that friend or family member to do the Forum regardless of their resistance, and they were applauded for ‘living this commitment’ (ie: continuing to harangue their friends and family).

    These cult aspects aside, I drifted away after the third course because it became apparent that there was always going to be another course that promised even more powerful living blah blah. Also, it dawned on me that one could easily become a course junkie, which rather defeats the purpose. You could spend a lifetime ‘self-developing’, but there comes a time when you’ve got to leave the harbour and put your new developed self into action.

    Bit by bit, as the influence of the Landmark community subsided, I found myself living less and less ‘powerfully’, and within a couple of years I was back to my default way of being, more or less. That’s the thing with these courses – the effects don’t last unless you stay in the course milieu. And if you do that, it becomes too demanding of your finances and time. Not to mention turning you into an alien! Course junkies and Avatar victims will know what I’m saying here.

    Now a lot of years down the track, I can say I have retained some useful understandings that came from the Forum, particularly, and Landmark generally. I would recommend the Forum still, but nothing else. If I had my time over, I would attend this and give the rest a big miss, including the free 10 week follow-up.

    Now to your situation, ASterpin. I have to say, I completely agree with your stance. I would not be exposing kids to anything like Landmark. I hate this fucking motivational stuff as an adult, even, because I think it can be dehumanising. If you carry it too far – and many do – you can transmogrify into a positive-thinking robot who walks around in a delusional state, whereby it is assumed that all ills can be ‘cured’ by positive self-talk, and all goals, no matter how unrealistic, similarly achieved. The flipside is that people who are not achievers in society’s terms are dismissed as losers who have only themselves and their negative self-talk to blame for their plight. I know a guy who dressed down his terminally ill father for thinking negatively when the poor old bloke complained about the pains in his bones deriving from metastatic cancer, and being perpetually tired. The same guy thinks he can influence share prices by positive thinking. If adults can be this gullible, what hope do kids have?

    Also, I share your view that childhood is a time for being a child, not for learning how to high-achieve. Learning comes naturally to a kid, with sensible exposure to appropriate stimulus that I’m sure you, as a parent, are already providing. I don’t see any place for Landmark here.

    As you have noted, Landmark is quite business-orientated. A lot of people get involved hoping to take their business to a new level, and materialistic goals are common among the folk who attend. Indeed, many use Landmark as a business networking opportunity. MLM drones are everywhere (at least, that was the case when I was involved).

    Obviously this would not be the case with the kids’ courses, but the goal-mindset and pushing yourself to limitless achievement is an integral part of Landmark, and IMO kids should not have to worry about this stuff until later. They have more than enough natural self-development in front of them without the pressure of the sorts of commitments Landmark advocates as part of ‘living powerfully’.

    So, I think you’ve made the right decision in keeping your child away from this stuff.


  227. Hi
    It’s been a while since I posted and it is now sadly all over for me and my wife, I honestly don’t even know who she is anymore. Avatar has left her in a state that I would clinically describe as paranoid with a secondary delusional psychosis. She rants and raves continually lying and making false accusations about the true nature of our separation. Avatar has left her an ugly self absorbed person. Harry Palmer you and your business are totally abhorrent in the way you destroy people and families, shameful.

  228. My ex husband who’s following avatar for the past 3 yrs is nothing but a liar. Every words came out from him are nothing but a made up stories. He was a liar before he joined this cult and he’s even worse now. He treats everyone like someone who has no brain, we all knew tjat he was lying but confidently he’ll point out to us that we’re the one who try to find him trouble. Avatar has left his brain undestructive.

  229. Hi Observer
    Sorry to read about relationship being finished. It`s seriously depressing what the outcome can be for partners and families of people who get caught up in the avatar mind rape. My partner,while seemingly not in contact with any “masters” and not doing further courses,is paying back her $10,000 loan to a master “baiter”,while making irrelevant comparisons,blame(often at me),and excuses when I explain the FACTS of her involvment and support(mentally and financially) of the Star`s Edge org. My hundreds of explanations and criticisms of her addiction have been a wasted effort. She still asks me to “explain what you mean”,as well as asking me what MY problem is,like this all started a few minutes ago. This disaster began,in fact,in 2004.
    I`ve tried short periods of separation(3-5 days) in the past month,even sleeping in a tent for a couple of long weekends,but it`s difficult also because of our daughter,who is by now allergic to a certain “A” word in our conversations. She`s 13 and a half,so she still often wants to have both a dad and a mom around.
    At least I have a few good friends who understand and give me some support.
    I hope you`re moving into a better and more stabile time in your life,Observer. I`ll keep plugging away and trying to be here for my daughter as much as i can….in a positive way,too.

    Take care

  230. Hi Rolan
    Great to hear your experiential views on Landmark.
    It does seem that many of these Human Potential Movement thingies actually deliver real benefits for the attendees at the time. Sadly the benefits don’t seem to last.
    The shame of it is when the originators of materials that purport to improve the human condition turn it into a money making enterprise. Landmark clearly uses overt pressure on its attendees to sign up for more courses and rope in family members and friends.
    Avatar has a fancy explanation on how empowering technologies are introduced to existing civilizations. Harry outlines 6 methods and guess what? He says that in the current environment exchanging his technology for valuable consideration (cash) is currently the best way. He also points out that would be “neo messiahs” who tried to give his technology away fell on hard times and disappeared very quickly. (Interesting that as the leader of the cult he has just planted the idea that sickness and poverty will befall you if you steal his stuff)
    How tragic that the money making goals of these self improvement peddlers become the goal rather than spreading tools and processes that would help mankind.
    L Ron Hubbard the Scientology founder did state that if you wanted to make wads of cash the best way would be to start a religion.
    By all means explore the technologies and frameworks offered by these modern day self improvement movements but keep your wits about you, and at the first sign of pressure to sign up family and friends to share the wonderful benefits with them, show the person your heels as this is the sign that you have already paid for and got any of the useful stuff already. Whatever is offered next is just designed to part you from your $$$ and will just be there to keep you involved and spending as well as supplying valuable leads for new prospects.

    Take care all.
    The Dr.

  231. …at the first sign of pressure to sign up family and friends to share the wonderful benefits with them, show the person your heels as this is the sign that you have already paid for and got any of the useful stuff already.

    Wise words, Dr! That’s as good a Stop! signal as any.


  232. Indoctrination,explained by a master of the practice :

    The goal of indoctrination is to structure someone’s consciousness in such a way that there are certain beliefs that the person is unwilling or unable to question.

    Indoctrination has the intention of making another accept your information without examining it.

    Information is coupled with a threat of punishment if it is not accepted or occasionally, as in marketing, with the promise of a reward if it is accepted.

    But because indoctrination is unexamined, it tends to unbalance a person’s rational thought processes.

    The information is transparent due to your unwillingness to question it. You might be willing to argue it, but not to question it. If you persist in questioning it, you become emotional and some part of your body may start to hurt. Indoctrinations are associated with pain and threats of punishment to prevent their being questioned.

    The emotion that arises from questioning indoctrinations fuels the intolerance in the world.

    Harry Palmer

  233. I have not entered a blog in quite a while but I have been following proceedings and I thought I might ‘re-enter the fray’.
    Observer I was very sad to hear of the recent break up with your wife. This must have been heart-breaking for you. I can only hope that something good comes out of this terrible situation.
    Rolan, thank you for the discourse on your experience with Landmark. It sounds very similar to Avatar with a ‘hook’ of some useful info followed by an indoctrination designed to drag people back to many courses.
    Doc, I appreciate your guidance re my daughter and her apparent desire to re-engage with her uni studies. I can’t believe it but she is seemigly on the road to completing her degree (while still attending Avatar courses, introductions and re-surfacing etc). I remember you mentioned a while back something about a hidden hierarchy of Masters. I wonder if you could explain what this is all about?!

  234. Dear Aghast,
    It would be my pleasure to elaborate on the Master’s hierarchy. However you need to bare in mind that These things evolve over time and my most up to date info is a couple of years old by now.

    Prior to 1998 in Australia and NZ the growth an expansion of Avatar was primarily the results of what I would call Early Adopters. People who got involved as Masters back then were on the leading edge of the movement (the first Wizards course was in 1992 I think).
    By nature they were probably opportunists who tried out new things but also had the desire to make a quick buck while experimenting with New Age ideas. They probably had tried Landmark Forum, played around with NLP etc. and saw the opportunity to build a business around being an Avatar Master. These go getters took lots of personal responsibility to get things humming along and some of them are still out there today selling and delivering the course while not being connected to the Star’s Edge network in any real way.

    Their licenses keep getting renewed each year based on their ability to produce new Avatar graduates. These are by now way in the minority. They often produce students who just do the first course (After all that where an Avatar Master makes their money). Students who do the Masters Course would deliver them a 10% Royalty but its really not worth the effort as the Masters Courses are only held in Australia and Orlando for us good old Southern Hemisphere people.

    In 1998 one of the first co-operative courses was held in Auckland and it encouraged all the “go it alone” Masters to bring their students and experience a co-operative delivery. The course was run by two Stars Edge Trainers and supported by the local QM”s (I’ll explain what a QM is in a minute). The outcome of the course had a fairly polarizing effect. For the solo operators who had been out their struggling away on their own running 9 day courses it was a huge relief to have somebody “in charge” overall and to be able to share the load and be supported by others. For the more egotistical Masters having to submit to the authority of a Stars Edge Trainer and to have their performance graded by a QM was just too much for their egos to handle.

    Stars Edge realized that for the product to be delivered to a consistent standard that there needed to be some form of control over the Masters so a new unofficial category of Master was created known behind the scenes as an “aligned Master”
    All future deliveries encouraged Masters to bring their students to a co-operative delivery and you could bring your students an intern (for a fee) based on your category of license. For some it was a great idea. Imagine being able to share the costs of the Hotel with your buddies and have other Masters there who were willing to work with your students when they got pissed off with you and wanted to leave or get their money back.

    License categories.
    All licenses are provisional one year licenses issued by Stars Edge and they can cancel them if you play up.
    Upon completion of your first Masters course you were licensed under one of the following categories: (my paraphrase of the categories!)
    1. Full license, OK to deliver Avatar solo but suggest reviewing the masters course to keep your hand in and keep money flowing to Stars Edge.
    2. You need to intern successfully under a qualified Master before being able to fly solo. Master Course review suggested.
    3. You are only able to intern under a qualified master (QM) and you have to do a review of the Masters course. This means you can bring students to a course and collect their fees. Students will qualify for your grid commissions in the future. You are probably some form of social reject or under 20 years of age to fall into this category. It’s their way of keeping access to your money without you being able to do too much damage to their brand.

    Students who attend the courses do not know what the categories of their Master’s are but the more astute students can observe Masters in action and there is a clear hierarchy and also wildly different levels of experience.

    Qualified Master explained.
    A Qualified Master or QM as they get called has had at least 10 students complete the Avatar course successfully. When you have 10 students complete you can apply for a QM certificate and this means you can run an Avatar Delivery with students who intern with you and they pay you an intern fee. The QM grades the student and sends all the info back to Stars Edge who control the licenses.
    In the old days the QM certificate would be given out to practically anyone who met the 10 student criteria and applied but that has changed now.

    In the mid 2000’s the Trainers figured out that having a team supporting the delivery and expansion of Avatar was a great way to go, so a hierarchy was developed to help Masters progress through the system and for Stars Edge to maintain tight control over who was doing what, where and when.

    In Australia and New Zealand there were a few people who had a QM certificate and they were encouraged to fall in line with the new organisation and work under the Stars Edge Trainer based in Melbourne. Some made the transition and some buggered off to make money elsewhere. Many of the early QM’s were great Sales people and were successful at bullying people onto courses.

    For a period of time Fully licensed Masters could turn up to a co operative course delivery and not intern under a QM or pay the intern fees as their licensing category allowed them to deliver solo anyway. This didn’t last for long though as the old Masters all seemed to disappear during this period.

    Nowadays you cant bring your own students to a co operative course unless you are prepared to intern under one of the course QM’s and pay the intern fee. As an aside as well as paying the intern fees and royalties you are encouraged to stay at the hotel where the course is being delivered even if you live in the same city. If you go home at night with some time to yourself you might start to question what is going on. Having you stay at the hotel keeps you connected with the group and the self indoctrinating nature of the group will keep you relatively compliant and under control

    After bringing most active Masters under the umbrella of co operative courses a new category of Master was introduced but it is not an official category under the licensing structure.
    They figured out that Masters had a variety of skill levels and experience and that some were good working together and some weren’t. As the courses got bigger they needed a way to share the load and the responsibility for the smooth running of a course to occur.
    They created a group called Advanced Interns or AI’s who would take on many of the tasks required to deliver a large course. To be an AI you had to prove some level of emotional stability (Masters constantly coming unglued on courses is distracting for first time students) and a desire to get to be a QM one day. So AI’s became the first intermediate level of hierarchy between a QM and the other Masters.
    A Trainer (only the trainers are employed by Stars Edge) looks after the QM’s and the and spends extra time with the AI’s. AI’s handle all the behind the scenes stuff like arranging accommodation, Room set up, Hotel Liaison, handling the library of course materials etc. The AI’s get graded by the Trainer at the end of each course.

    The QM (who may also be interning under the Trainer for the QM position) works with the new Masters under the supervision of the Trainer. I would guess that the QM pays intern fees to the Trainer just like the all the other interns do. I suspect the intern fees of interning Masters get shared out amongst the QM’s.

    The QM’s have the responsibility between courses to a) enrol and support their interning Masters to arrive at courses with paying students b) generate paying students themselves for the upcoming courses c) to support the Masters to support all new Avatar’s to get signed up for The Masters course, The Pro Course and The Wizards course and d) to get old Masters to reconnect with the network and to review The Masters course, or get on an integrity course.

    To make it even more complicated the new master, Advanced Intern Master and Qualified Master didn’t seem to provide enough levels so a new category was introduced called Junior Advanced Intern to provide a progression from being new and enthusiastic with hardly any skills to a position that holds minor responsibility.

    With all the activity going on around prospecting for students, running intro evenings, going of field trips to get new prospects, Delivering courses, worrying about their lack of cash and the trail of broken relationships, active Masters and QM’s have very little time to themselves. Having your attention on others and their enlightenment is a noble thing but it also prevents Masters from questioning what they are doing which would be bad for future business.

    The goal is to get a new Avatar to The Masters course and to then have them intern with a paying student on a co operative delivery. The new master then is supposed to get excited about delivering courses and then may desire to become a Juniour Advanced Intern because after all who wants to be at the bottom of the pyramid? The Juniour AI wants to progress to AI status and the AI to progress to being a QM. The QM goal is usually to progress to be a trainer etc.

    Of the AI’s I knew back in the mid 2000’s only 5 have made it to QM status and 2 of those 5 have dropped out. Of the existing pool of 5 QM’s in Australia and NZ only 1 remains. The one QM who made it to Trainer Status is now having some time out. You probably have more likelihood of becoming a member of parliament than being a successful QM. The toll on the lives of the devotees appears to be very high.

    For me the interesting thing to note is that the hierarchy provides a lot more control to Stars Edge but that the progression for people has not accelerated their ability to move into positions of more responsibility.

    So Ahgast, hopefully you now are more informed on the behind the scenes aspects of being an Avatar Master. I do pray that your daughter keeps on with her studies as there are not many jobs out there where being a failed Avatar Master is a useful or relevant piece of experience.

    Toodle Pip
    The Dr.

  235. Doc,
    I appreciate your reply to my query. It seems a very involved sort of organisation. I am guessing that the constant carrot of advancing to the next level would play out prominantly while people were part of the delivery of an avatar course etc.
    I agree with you regarding my daughter’s current studies. I just have my fingers crossed she completes what she started.

  236. Landmark is the same as all the other scams give people so useful tools initially charged them for it but then exploit them. I think is has been stated on this forum before that if you go as far as resurfacing in the Avatar program that is the most useful stuff and from there not much new is learnt other than to recruit and get pushed into more courses looking for greater supposed insight.
    If you listed to some of Harry Palmer’s talks you will notice that they are full of ‘Yes’ statements by this I mean the first 5 or 6 things he talks about are relatively true and acceptable so once you have got into the habit of saying yes that makes sense and I agree with that etc it is then quite simple for him to add some non truths and confusing language to get you to believe everything he is saying. I have listened to numerous talks and undoubtedly he does it without fail I find myself agreeing with him up to a point then saying hang on a minute that’s a stretch, then what that is wrong that’s crap. Very clever indeed must remember never to buy a car off him.
    Scamatar I feel for your situation Avatar has also been in my life since about 2004 with a few years break in there, interesting my wife had apologised to them for that period. I am finally glad that the madness has come to an end in my life, I wish my ex-wife all the best but really how I tolerated such crap for so long has only been because of my desire to love her and try to protect my family and children but all is lost anyway. Interestingly my wife thinks I have caused it because that is what I focused my attention on, have you ever heard such dribble. Someone once asked me what the opposite to love is? the obvious answer is of course hate but they are both emotions the real opposite it seems is indifference and that is exactly what you come up against trying to elicit any feelings from your partner. I think a lot of the exercises on an Avatar course are designed to do just that make people indifferent about everything from money to emotions, that way they no longer feel the need to take personal responsibility for anything. I often look at that giggling prat the Deli Lama and think the same, he has total indifference to everything, and I find him and his ho ho ho laughter extremely annoying. Your comment on indoctrination is true what I have found is Avatar teaches opposites, so who you state you are or what you are doing is the exact opposite of what is actually happening in reality, very clever indeed. I mean anything that has to state that they are not a cult usually turns out to be just that.
    I also agree with you words Doc “At the first sign of pressure to sign up family and friends to share the wonderful benefits with them, show the person your heels as this is the sign that you have already paid for and got any of the useful stuff already.” the problem is that’s how Multi Level Marketing companies work, they use the trust and relationships of friends and loved ones to sell their products, totally immoral and unethical in every form.
    Aghast I am also glad for you that your daughter has returned to her studies but sad that she still attends Avatar courses, my only fear for you is that Universities are a happy hunting grounds for organizations like Avatar so I would imagine they would be encouraging her also but more to recruit new sheep than really care about her studies and future.
    Lastly sorry about the long winded rant but thank you all for your support over the past 18 months I have enjoyed being able vent and express my true feelings about such an abhorrent organisation and the poor victims and perpetrators involved. I will not give up trying to expose Avatar for what it really is.

  237. Dear Aghast
    You are right about the constant carrot bit. What I noticed I experienced were two fairly strong desires that held me in the organisation for way too long.
    One was a desire to be part of something special and big and the desire to continue to be successful.
    In contrast was a fear that I might miss out or be left behind.
    I guess these types of emotions have lots of power and are the same types of things that allow people to be sucked into pyramid schemes or cons.
    For many years I feared that leaving Avatar may have been a huge mistake and that I might have turned my back on something really important.

    I am still amazed that once in the grips of a cult like Avatar one becomes totally blind to the indoctrination one is receiving and even scarier that one becomes an active indoctrinator of others. As I look back I see how I applied pressure on my fellow Avatar Masters to conform to the needs of the cult.

    Companies can behave like cults too but at least in corporations the bullshit, the politics, the power structures and the abuse of them etc are more obvious.

    The Dr

  238. Today my wife told me that her “Primary” was to separate from me. Imagine all those nasty secondaries that must have popped up, distressed children, loss of family, no income etc. Currently she is drowning in her own BS trying desperately to discredit me to friends and family to justify her decision while the truth about Avatar is now surfacing and she is desperatly defending it but telling killer lies in the process.

  239. Dear Observer
    I can only imagine that such a stupid primary is the result of a Master encouraging her that you are holding her back from her greater primary to create an Enlightened Planetary Civilization. What a load of crap!
    Suggest to her that her primary should be “I honour my existing agreements and responsibilities” Then suggest to her that she needs to to several EJP’s (Enlightened Justice Procedures) to handle what comes up. The EJP has a portion of making amends for the damage done when one acts outside of integrity.
    Of course it will be a complete waste of time.
    The Dr

  240. What Dr. Strangelove said. Setting a primary to separate from a significant other just shows how heartless and delusional Harry Palmer and his trainers and masters are.

  241. Here are a few quotes from some Avatar disciples pulled off of Harry Palmer’s Facebook page…

    “Call me FEARLESS!!! “to show up with courage even when I’m trembling inside. I would not worry about what others think of me…I would follow the path of my heart…call me FEARLESS!”
    Great Song…sending this out to all the fearless Avatars!!”

    “Thank you all for being willing to show up, look up, make up, and step up ♥ I suggest the primary “I Am Loved”. ;)”

    “There only is a Higher Self if there is a Lower Self, which is the illusion that you call ‘I’. Therefore, your Higher Self is nothing but an illusion too! Any identification is!”

    “Playing the game of playing the game gets so real, that I sometimes tend to forget which game i’m in….Am i awake or am i just dreaming it? My awakening may be a dream. But then again….. its a beautiful dream, after all, so who’s complaining?!”

    “Harry , thank you very much for doing & sharing the awesome cool tools. Today I just use one of them. Spend 10minute , and I feel “I am” & “I am here” . Thank you very very very much . I love you ^^.”

    “For you to deliberately decide some thing, you will need a you.
    Because you are just an idea, an illusionairy definition of separation, your idea of ‘deliberate’ and ‘decide’ are an idea too. Holding this illusion is fun, though!”

    “Dear Harry, Thank you so much for the “Advice to Wizards” I just received. It’s pricless. I will put all of your advice to use, but I especially loved: “Encourage wholesome acts. Serve others. Never be motivated by what is done to you.”
    You are a treasure Harry, thank you!!”


  242. I just heard that the plan is to have 5000 people at Wizards this year. I imagine that would mean at least 2500 new Wizards at $7500 per newbie.
    More cash for Stars Edge, more families in debt, more pseudo enlightenment purchased at great cost. Still no cure for cancer.

  243. It seems that the Wizards Course is the big ‘payoff’ in terms of Stars Edge. I am not sure but I guess there are a lot of people who go to Wizards year after year and at a reduced rate cost wise.
    Seeing a such a large number of people at a venue at once would have quite a galvanising effect on one’s psyche (up to maybe 5000 people according to the good doctor). It seems a bit like Nuremburg with not a swastika in sight – only smiles! A seductive mix indeed.
    I was wondering doc: does Harry and his wife and/or any other ‘originals’ make an appearance at Wizards?

  244. Dear Aghast
    Harry makes a daily appearance on stage to give a talk then disappears. You don’t get to hang out with him or meet him. The closest you will get to that is at the Closing ceremony when all the trainers hand our pins to graduates from stage and you might be lucky enough to get yours from Harry.

    Avra Harry’s wife is the front person for everything else and she looks after the team of Trainers who perform on stage after lunch every day. Avra lives in a perpetual state of worship and adoration from the trainers but in my view is a power hungry control freak with a fair bit of shrew thrown in to ensure that rising stars dont question her authority with fear.

    Miken Chappel who the head of the backroom organisation and admin stuff makes an appearrance on stage at some point. Avra and Miken have been with Harry from his Scientology days. People wonder about the nature of the relationship between Harry, Miken and Avra. Mikens husband left her somewhere way back. It could have been even pre Avatar and she is one of the devotees would spends her entire life working for the cause.
    Wizard this year will still be full of people paying under $1000 to review its only the first timers who will pay the $7500, plus airfares, plus accommodation for 2 weeks)

    Me, I’m going to spend time with my family and maybe catch some very unenlightened fish.
    Toodle Pip

  245. Quick story about Avra. After my disgust with my master and the deception, I said some nasty things about Avatar on Facebook. Yes, what I said was “kind of” childish and I owned up to it. My master asked me to email Avra and apologize for what I said about Avatar. Out of respect, I did, although I now regret ever apologizing to Avra because my comments were not directed at her. Why should I apologize to her? She emailed me back thanking me for accepting responsibility. Responsibility for what was my question?

    Anyways, my impression of Avra from seeing her at the International and Master courses is she actually seems less arrogant then the head trainers. She definitely runs the show while I guess Harry sits at home with his dogs counting his riches.

    I sometimes wonder if my anger and hatred towards Avatar will ever fade? Yes, it is a waste of precious energy to dwell on a huge mistake from the past, but when you trust people and find out the hard way that they were deceiving you all in the name of recruiting you as a disciple for a sick cult, it just leaves a very sour taste in one’s mouth that may never leave.

  246. One other thing, I hope Harry, Avra or anyone from Avatar reads this blog and sees that there are intelligent people out there who can see through their game. Those of us with a logical brain will continue to do our best to warn others about the bullshit that is Avatar.

  247. It seems like the good old Avatar Pacific Network may be suffering a bit from not overcoming its secondaries. One Trainer and two Qualified Masters have dropped off the network list in recent times.
    If the Avatar technology allows you to create primaries and experience them as a reality then I guess these people, the elite of the Avatar network, either created primaries to fail or perhaps the “tools” just dont work.
    Either way the elite Avatar Masters and Wizards are failing and dropping out at a constant rate over the last 10 years and yet still hundreds more converts are found every couple of months.

    Sadly a great friend who was an Avatar Master died of a brain cancer a while back. If everything is just a belief then he failed to use the Avatar Tools to discreate the belief that caused the cancer to exist or even worse he must have decided that he wanted to experience a painful death this lifetime.

    Harry gets richer, World peace is as far away as ever, and still no cure for cancer.
    Harry’s karma account must be in serious overdraft for all the harm he is causing.

  248. Dear Doc, very sorry to hear about your friend – not good news. I notice that ‘Avatar is a joke’ has a bit to say about Avra and co. at Wizards – interesting stuff.
    I must say that I am pleased to hear about the drop off in the number of masters and trainers lately! It really is good news. I guess the decline in the economic situation is having an impact.
    I would dearly love to be able to somehow get front row at Wizards and be able to throw a big bag of King Cobras and Taipans onto the stage!!
    There would definitely be an abrupt change in the level of consciousness then and there! I don’t know if the ‘feel it’ exercises would be very useful as people ran for cover!

    As always, Aghast.

  249. Doc, observer, Aghast etc….

    Thanks for being so candid on this website and give people an honest account of Avatar and the dishonest Masters.

    I tried to post quite a lengthy story here a while ago but for some reason it didn’t post.

    After some very nasty experiences with the local Avatar office where I live and getting to know (not like) some QM’s, I’d be very interested to know which ones have dropped off the radar.

    There is a master whom does a lot of the recruiting whom also runs a number of other scams as a life coach to legit businesses, I’d be horrified if any got hooked up in Avatar. I have a fair bit of stuff to post, but I’m not sure what the boundaries are with what I can and can’t post.

  250. Dear Halpmefightavatar
    Post away old chap.

    Masters who have dropped off the radar as far as I know are:
    Dave Sharpe QM Melbourne
    Naomi Hearne failed QM, Sunshine Coast
    Donald and Judy McDonald failed QM’s, Hawkes Bay (Don is the brother of Shona McDonald, Stars Edge Trainer and main cult recruiter for Oz and NZ. Andrew Tuck QM, Sydney is alsothe nephew of Shona.
    Mark Tapsell, failed Stars Edge Trainer and long time NZ QM (used to be Shona’s right hand man).
    Caroline Clark failed QM Sunshine Coast
    Andy Shaw failed QM, Auckland
    Laurel Freeland failed QM, Melbourne.

    You would think that the high number of failures within the senior ranks of the cult would make the next level down wonder a tad, but no.
    5000 people at the Wizards Course is Harry’s latest ego trip and I have had several contacts wishing that I was there with them at Wizards this year. I’d rather stick bits of broken glass up my nose and then snort some wasabi! I am sure it would have the same effect on the collective consciousness as spending 13 days being brainwashed at the Wizards course.

    Toodle pip.

  251. Awesome,

    I know at least one of the those names, Mark Tapsell, although he was one of the more benign Masters I thought. I was more hoping for JT and/or ST.

    When you say failed, what do you mean? Failed in the eyes of Avatar or failed some other way?

    What avenues do you think there are legally? I have direct examples of where the travel agent they use to book flights for students were keeping the Masters updated when they changed their minds and then straight away the Masters would ring and do run downs with the flittering student until such time as the student would re-book.

    Other examples such as harrasment via telephone, stand over tactics etc… I went through three plus months of hell with avatar and nearly lost a loved one. I also saw a number of masters surround an unwilling student whom repeatedly said they wanted to leave and not let them go eg:- unlawful restraint.

    Thanks Doc

  252. Hi Heplmefightavatar,

    I tried to fight Avatar for 5 years the last 2 being the worst ending up in the loss of my wife and family. While I am now moving on from this lunacy I’m afraid the effects on my children will be forever. My ex is now busily denying and lying not only about Avatar but the reason for our separation. The venom with which she has for me is unbelievable especially as it was her primary to separate from me she was never like this pre Avatar. I am worried that it has left her psychologically damaged with a fluctuating personality I hope she can find real help one day to confront her issues for the sake of our children.
    I hope you have the courage to post what you can it’s the experiences of real people and their loved ones that help others. Doc interesting to see that Naomi Hearn has fallen off the radar she has been involved for well over 10 yea and totally responsible for my ex wife’s involvement and the destruction of my family, I knew her pre Avatar and all I could say is that Avatar turned her into a Narcissist.
    Keep posting

  253. Dear HMFA

    I don’t really know who you mean by JT or ST but I do know that Simon Townsend one of the newest QM’s is a Doctor.
    I am totally familiar with the high pressure tactics you mention. The bizzare thing is the Masters doing it think they are doing the student a favour by not supporting their secondaries. It just goes to show how screwed up people get after being involved with the cult for a long period of time.
    When I say failed I mean that these Masters who supposedly create the reality they prefer by creating primaries like “I am a successful Avatar Master” are failures because they cant practice what they preach.
    If you cant handle your secondaries and be a successful Master you are a big fat failure and a loser and it shows Harry’s tools don’t work. Funny thing, the failed Masters will never blame Harry, they’ll probably say that they just haven’t handled their secondaries yet.

    Happy cult busting everyone and for the loyal Masters “Happy Poverty”

  254. Hi Doc and HMFA,
    Of course everyone fails at being an Avatar, primaries are the fantasy that you would love to live and secondaries are the real world realities such as finances, friends, family and emotions that the primaries would disrupt. Normal people would think of something they would like and weigh up pros and cons. With Avatar you just steamroll ahead with your primary (fantasy) regardless of the destruction you may cause by ignoring the realities (secondaries) of your actions. At least for those that fail there seems to be some hope that their continued failure may one day enable them to wake up.

  255. HMFA, Doc, Observer and others,
    The name Naomi (I am guessing Naomi Hearne) was being bandied about at our house last year and 2010 – I seem to remember there were many phone calls to my daughter to get her ready to attend and help out at a variety of Avatar meetings.
    ‘Simon’ was also mentioned a number of times as well and he seemed to be pretty high up in the mix.
    I am not sure to what extent these calls are continuing but it seems they have dropped off a lot since the middle of last year!
    Maybe it is just the time of year but ‘Avatar’ activity seems to have dropped off a lot of late.

    Good luck to all!

  256. Has anyone got details of the supposed enlightened content in the Advanced Wizards course(s) because I need to contest it with my girlfriend who has already been fleeced for her money before I met her.

    I have seen the entry level free Resurfacing material, but wanted to gain access to the oh-so -secret inner workings that the Wizards are sworn to keep to themselves and those `in the know` ? I am trying to differentiate between what seems to me a typical scam / MLM / cult set up, and focus on the actual `tools` and content of the advanced material so I can engage my partner on it.

    I want to see how much of the Harry Palmer philosophy is actually directly attributable to other systems/philosophies/ cults eg Scientology NLP. I read somewhere that some of what HP espouses as his own insight is actually present in ancient texts. I am guessing that with so many disillusioned ex-Wizards there must be a resource where the content is available for scrutiny.

    Any advice or resources welcome. Thanks.


  257. Hi Neil,
    Good luck trying to understand and discuss with your girlfriend. I read all the materials and honestly felt I understood the material better than my ex-wife did so when she was confronted with something she couldn’t explain which was predominantly all the time, the response would always be something like you have to do the course to understand or you can’t just read the material its a feeling and even though when I ask what happens on a course she would say they would just work through the work books.
    The Masters, Professional and Wizards courses are just a rehash of resurfacing but they spend a lot more time breaking people down to align them with the goals of Stars Edge i.e. to recruit and attend further courses and provided service to others and how do you do that, you guessed it get them on a course silly.
    In the Wizards course you get introduced to the Entity Handling Procedure which is basically the imaginary soles of dead people that are stuck in astral planes have attached themselves to you and your problems as they are stuck in astral planes because of these problems and they can’t move to the next astral plane and they are the cause of all what is bad in your life, the EHP teaches you how to rid your body of them and bid them farewell. Same at scientology body theatans, but in scientology BT’s are from an alien planet, Harry reckons they are the lost soles stuck in astral planes same crap.
    Anyway I used this link to get hold of all materials hope it is still active for you:
    Cheers and good luck mate…

  258. I am thinking about starting an anti-avatar Facebook page. Basically, it would be another place for those of us with avatar horror stories to go to share. Anyone else interested?

  259. Dear Observer , Dr , Aghast and others

    My girlfriend is returning from the Florida Avatar course on Saturday and wants me to take the first three courses. I certainly will not be paying for them but am prepared to engage her based on the Course materials that have been sent to me. NB (Thanks Observer for the link and last response).

    I am open (but not wide open !) to tools and strategies that genuinely empower individuals to make positive changes but do not come attached with a questionable financial business model and control mechanisms that prey on human weaknesses as my early research of Avatar has led me to percieve.

    When discussing with my girlfriend, I want to refer her to information that pre-dates Avatar so I can show her that the amazing material is not all Harry`s ‘ enlightened awareness, whilst relating other Course material that is present in other personal growth material.

    I know that if I flatly refuse it may cause a rift, so I am prepared to be patient and discuss it with her and ask searching questions.

    The following questions I pose to others on this site that have far better knowledge than me are as follows:

    1. Other than Scientology where I have unsurprisingly on investigation deduced striking similarities with Avatar , can anyone point me to other previous spiritual/ personal development material that has been copied or plaguarized to be included in this highly questionable extortionate operation ? I came across a web posting that mentioned some Avatar content that can actually be directly attributable to some ancient texts dating back 1000`s of years.

    2. Has anyone had success in managing to penetrate the belief system of an Avatar devotee ? ie where the eg ‘ Master or ‘Wizard’ when posed with some points based on critical thinking, actually took them on board and saw through Avatar, rather than taking a defensive stance and stating the questioner has the issues? If so what did you do that worked?

    If you have knowledge on this then I would really like to know so I can use it for when my girlfriend returns. I could understand why it may not be a good idea to post it in case the Avatar police can prepare an answer should they come across it to add to their armoury, so I can always offer up a new email address if need be.

    Here`s hoping the information is out there amongst you all

    Thanks in advance

  260. Hi Neil,
    Your girlfriend will return shortly and she’ll be off again straight away with the thought that she really knows what she wants to do with her life to help others and she’ll be interning at the nearest Avatar course at her own expense. Don’t be surprised.
    As far as point 1 you raised look back at my post on Dec 11th 2010, I cover pretty well the new age create your own realities dictum created by Jane Roberts and her conversations with Seth or just Google conversations with Seth and Jane Roberts its explained a lot clearer, wacky as it is rather than Harry’s feeble attempt to sound spiritual and it dates back to the 1972 from memory. Also Harry hangs his hat on the Creation Handling Exercise but again it’s taken from the $10 book the Hidden Mind of freedom penned in 1981 it was the one part of Avatar initially considered to be unique until a graduate came across a description of a Tibetan meditation technique taught by Mr. Tarthang Tulku, a Tibetan lama who left the country after the Chinese invasion, and founded the ‘Nyingama Institute’ in Berkeley, California in 1969. His method for eliminating unwanted thought forms and their effects, as described in the book ‘Hidden Mind of Freedom’ published in 1981 is virtually the same as Mr. Harry Palmer’s ‘discovery’ in the float-tank in 1988.
    I think you are better off spending $10 on the book Hidden Mind of Freedom than tens of thousands of dollars on the Avatar courses. What you have to get your girlfriend to recognise is that Harry has basically rehashed everyone else’s material from Scientology, eastern philosophy, Tarthang Tulku and Jane Roberts and countless other and repackaged it to middle class morons that think they need to smile or die. Don’t attack your girlfriend on her new found beliefs go for the top of the tree, that said they soon learn to forgive old Harry for his indiscretions.
    Good luck buddy

  261. HI Jerry
    You may want to check out my wordpress site harletystrangelove.wordpress.com
    at least people can maintain some anonymity unlike facebook where every fart seems to be a public event.
    Toodle Pip

  262. Neil,

    I feel for you, but it seems you are already on the right course with the website you have been linked to. I too have the course material from that website and can confirm that it is legit.

    I started to question the Masters when my wife was getting up to 10 calls a day for over an hour each call. They quoted 100% material from the book etc….

    Please read a book from Steve Hassan – Releasing the Bonds. There are some very good examples of how to help people in any cult and explain the stages of Mind Control.

    My wife, now off the path and happy for it, recently read a Meditation Book and the “Feel It” exercises mirrored it but also read about what suggestive thoughts can be slipped into the mind in that state of meditation.

    I mirror the thoughts here that absolute confrontation isn’t the way to go about it, the masters will be on the phone twisting and manipulating your words every step of the way. As I mentioned previously, they go as far as to keep tabs on airline fight details and if you cancel they get a call from the travel agent and then call the Avatar student in a matter of seconds. They get previous course participants to call and lay guilt trips, it’s shite.

    I did the gently, gently approach and it took a mental breakdown, mine, to make a dent in the grip of avatar, but that’s all it takes as long as you keep a level head.

    More later

  263. Interesting blog – I say that having read all the posts.

    Just wanted to point out for those of you who have not done Avatar that most of what you read and hear about the course is nothing more than biased uninformed opinion. I have no idea whether Avatar was or is based on CofS or anything else, but what I do know for a fact having done the whole course is that Avatar is the most powerful tool available to help you recognize yourself, those around you and your actions. Avatar works and the fact that you have to pay for it makes it work even better; most people never respect a freebie and most Avatars have no issue with Harry making money out of this.

  264. Of course “A Wizard” would say that. My comments are based on fact, no opinion offered, just fact. Of course Avatars think Harry is good, because he has enforced his mind control techniques onto them and all logical reasoning has been switched off. Those whom have managed to retain some are subjected to hours upon hours of repetative phone calls.

    Not oonce did an Avatar master ask us what our “Primary” was, it was always a “Primary” with an outcome to benefit the Avatar network.

    Nice try Wizard, but fail!

  265. A Wizard,

    Well, I have done the Avatar course and it is indeed a joke. I feel sorry for all the Avatars out there who lack enough confidence in themselves to see what Harry Palmer and his Star’s Edge machine is doing to them.

    You say Avatar is the most powerful tool available to help you recognize yourself, those around you and your actions…bullshit. From doing the course, the only thing you should recognize about yourself is that you have serious doubts about who you really are as a person. You are grasping for straws. You pay good money to some freak to do a bunch of crap “mental” exercises that anyone with common sense would see how ridiculous they are.

    My being manipulated by a master to do the course when I was at a very weak point in my life turns out to be the best thing that happened to me. Seeing first hand just how the Avatar game is played only confirmed my suspicions going in. In the end, I walked away, with all my money…screw you Harry, you didn’t get a cent out of me, and my dignity.

  266. A Wizard,


    “what I do know for a fact having done the whole course is that Avatar is the most powerful tool available to help you recognize yourself, those around you and your actions.”

    You identify yourself as an ingenue and naive in the extreme right there. How do you know “for a fact” that Avatar is unparallelled as “the most powerful tool available” in the areas you mention? What’s your basis for comparison? That is, how many other tools do you have personal knowledge and experience of equal to that you have of Avatar? And how long have you enjoyed these apparently spectacular results? What can you point to in your personal life that directly reflects these personal advances you’ve achieved due to your Avatar learnings? What is the status of your personal relationships with others who have not done the Avatar course?

    Your claims have zero credibility until you respond with honesty and clarity to these basic questions. Less than zero, actually, since the odds are high indeed that you’re simply spouting off unsubstantiated propaganda-fuelled puff with the zeal typical of a cult convert. I imagine Charlie Manson’s girls would have made similar claims to those you’ve made, and with equal fervour.

    But let’s be fair and give you the opportunity to qualify your seemingly extravagant claims by responding to the questions above…


  267. Dear A Wizard
    As a fellow Wizard and ex long time cult follower of Harry I’d say you have demonstrated to all in this blog that you are a perfect example of the kind of cult devotee that Avatar creates.
    How about creating the primary “I am a brainwashed cult follower” and see what secondaries show up. As you know the Wizard course teaches that you can create primaries to see what secondaries might exist in mass consciousness”
    And now the primary …..
    Remember from Harry “Whatever you resist persists” so don’t be afraid of resisting being a brainwashed diddle brain.

    Toodle Pip

  268. A Wizard,

    Four words contained in the paragragh you wrote stand out to me as informing the other statements : `I have no idea`… Not at all surprising then,that these four words come shortly before one of the most idiotic statements that I`ve ever read : `the fact that you have to pay for it makes it work even better…`

    You are undoubtably a “wizard”,but certainly not a wizard of any intelligence.

    Good luck in your rubber bedroom.

  269. A good friend just returned from an “epic” course at Daytona Beach in the states. I assume this is the Wizard conference you all talk about above. I didn’t realise he had gotten himself into a cult until i (and a bunch of my friends) received an email from him telling us about this “amazing” course that is changing his lift and how we should attend a course he is now “helping to deliver in Australia”.

    Unfortunately he has just gone through a divorce and i’m really wondering if in this weak moment in his life he has been seduced into this cult. He was roped in by a relative and he been overseas to the US twice since August attending courses (that i know of).

    My biggest worry other than for his own safety, is how i deal with him. I want to tell him to snap out of it, cut his financial losses now and get out, but i am terrible at confrontations and know i will probably handle it quite badly.

    Reading this site has been quite the eye opener…

    Here’s hoping for the all the lost souls out there.

  270. Dear friend of a recent convert,

    Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do to get this friend to snap out of his affection to Avatar. Just be there to support him when he wakes up and realizes how much precious time and money he has given to Harry Palmer and Star’s Edge. Once he regains his mental strength (Avatar devotees lack this), then he will realize his horrific mistake.

  271. I guess that is a better way to approach it. It’s so sad to see it happen though. The worst thing is he has worked hard, saved some cash etc. and now to see him blow it on something like this. Such a waste.

  272. I see that the Pacific Avatar Team are already starting their drive to get people to the Wizards Course in 2013.
    Rough costs
    Avatar Course $3500 AUD Travel and Accomodation $1000 AUD
    Masters Course $3000 USD Travel and accomodation $2500 USD if attended in the US (Master Course is a pre requisite for attending Wizards)
    Pro Course (optional) $2500 USD Travel and accomodation $2500 USD
    Wizards Course $7500 USD Travel and accomodation $3500 USD
    Total cost of “Enlightenment” $26000 USD.

    Total cost of broken relationships and harm done by associating with the cult ………

    Alternate suggestion: Be kind to family, friends, work colleagues and every stranger you meet. Donate some of your abundance to those less fortunate than yourself and make the world a better place by you being in it.

    Toodle Pip

  273. Hmm I disagree with your cynicism abour Avatar. Especially the comments on Indoctrination. The world we live in is full of Indoctrination, from media, tv, schools, universities, billboards, big pharma, radio, pop music, food additives, flouride in the water etc. It’s everywhere. Avatar course is completely the opposite of indoctrination. It’s purpose is to get rid of all the conditioned negative beliefs you have been forced upon since birth and to follow your true thoughts and feelings that have been completely dumbed down and surpressed.

    I have only done the 2 day course so far, but I experienced so much insight into my negative patterns and programs of my life that already I feel so much more positive about life and my future. The teachers of the course are very careful to NOT push their beliefs on to you, and want YOU to take responsibility for your own mind and not be further brainwashed by such a consumer driven society.

    The very fact that someone can be so cynical about a course that’s main mission is to empower people to be happy is a belief itself – one that is probably indoctrinated by a society that just expects the worst scenario, even from people who are out there to help you. This is really sad but I guess the true current state of the world we live in. However I have hope for a better world and a better future.

    I am glad I have discovered Avatar, and I think it really has the potential to make the world a brighter and happier place. If you don’t agree, then continue to study the indoctrinated university degrees, get a full time job and a house and mortgage and just keep paying your taxes and surviving. Stay stuck in that rat race reality if you like it. But if you really want to take any responsibility for the fact that YOU create your reality, then you will find Avatar is a step in the right direction.



  274. I urge you to use your discernment before going any further and hope you are doing your research.

    I hope you can disassociate between your what sounds like the positive experiences you have had and not get attached to the idea that Avatar is `the answer` . What if you knew that many of the ideas were lifted materials that pre-date Avatar?

    As soon as I saw material that claimed Harry Palmer was in Scientology for 15 years, a `red flag` came up immediately. Look `behind the veil` into the Organization and the business model, see the striking similarities with Scientology, and before investing further, speak to people now out of Avatar.

    Should enlightenement from an enlightened one come at such a premium I ask?

    Use critical thinking. I observe all good cults have answers for when rational people employ critical thinking towards them eg we are `in our heads`, have ‘issues’ and are ‘cut off from our feelings’. I do not criticize Avatar lightly.

    I thinks that if any individual accesses a tool, strategy, religion or organization that genuinely empowers the individual , is centred on sound principles, leaves a positive effect assuming it does not cause any harm, then I am all for it.

    Well I have a feeling about Avatar all right and it`s in my guts. My guts tell me that Harry Palmer, after many years honing his product when In Scientology has pulled together some appealing tools and integrated it into a money spinner that a lot of good people looking for answers are falling for.

    I know a friend that has done $30,000 over 4-5 years on Avatar, and has gone all the way through to do the Wizards course. They justify it by saying that a `Masters’ in traditional education requires serious investment in oneself too. I asked did you create that rationale or are you just repeating it? If thats the case, after 4 years, why are you now upto $100,000 in debt. Surely these secret tools of manifestation would have materialized abundance by now? But that`s just me projecting what `return I would want on $30,000 large ones.

    In order to make an informed decision, I urge you to be in full receipt of the facts. Best of luck dude.

  275. I am so sorry for your loss Mich. Looks like Harry got another. Hoping for the best for you with your new found passion.

  276. Hi Mich
    afterthought for you..

    If you were presented with irrefutable facts that questioned the integrity of the Avatar organization, would you look to (a) dismiss the findings before seeing if they had a solid basis so you can make an informed decision, or, would you (b) dismiss them instantly without looking as a knee-jerk reaction because it conflicted with your `belief` in Avatar. If it is option (a) then we haven`t lost you yet, if its (b) then I wonder if you have unconsciously been indoctrinated and the opinion you espouse has been tainted. If Avatar was all that good and Harry wanted to assist our planetary evolution, I’d say to this to HP -slash the cost to a nominal fee or go free and then we could all instantly manifest/create/discreate into our full potentiality/ `wizardry` – job done in no time – we all create our own nirvanas and all live happily ever after.

  277. Avatar`s “main mission” is to put lots of money in Harry Palmer`s bank account. And it has. This is not cynicism or a lie or a negative belief. It is a fact.

  278. Lost some of my painful negative beliefs, yeah a big loss…

    You don’t have to give Harry any money to use the techniques. I first discovered his book in an op shop. Cost me about $1. And then later I did the 2 day course for $330, but thats a standard price for most weekend self development courses. I wouldn’t do the 9day course, don’t think i need to.

    Corporations make a lot of money too, so what? He’s making money out of doing something good for people. How many people can say that? Deepak Chopra makes a lot of money too, what an evil person he must be!

    Still don’t really get why all the cynicism?

  279. Mich, what you are saying has a familiar ring to me – someone very near and dear to me told me pretty much what you have explained. As doctor strangelove has stated previously most of the ‘useful stuff’ is found in the ‘resurfacing’ materials. If that’s where it begins and ends for you you will probably save yourself a squillion.
    I guess $330 is not much money for a two day course but $7500 for ‘Wizards’ definitely is. I hope you sort things out for yourself and good luck to you – I really mean it.

  280. Mich, Harry is doing NOTHING good for people. Go deeper into the course and really get to know some Masters and you will see for yourself how delusional these people are. You really want to lose some of your negative beliefs? Stop thinking negatively! It really is very simple but Harry has developed a huge money making scheme to make it sound much more complicated than it need be. You really want to see how crazy this Avatar stuff is? Do part 3 of the course and the discreating exercise…it will really give you a good laugh. That is if your state of mental weakness hasn’t succumbed to Harry’s brainwashing and you really “believe” that stuff works.

  281. Mich, Glad that you have had the good sense to stop at the basic level. I raise the subjects of `value for money`. My rationale when I was approached and told the cost of the programme was to do some research (out of curiosity and concern for my friend) which led me to this point. Like you, I have invested in courses before and the question of `value for money` was always in the mix for me as you seem to have applied too.

    Avatar comes up well short on `VFM` in my book, and I think the considerable expenditure required could be redirected better elsewhere.

    By applying caution and doing research on the net, the information on the courses is there to be seen to determine Avatar`s perceived benefit.

    Personally, when I saw the clear parallels with Scientology, that some materials contained within the Avatar courses were drawn from other previous sources that pre-date Avatar at a fraction of the cost, and the Multi Level Marketing methods of recruitment that was enough for me to keep my `hard earned` in my pocket on this particular baby but hey, each to their own.

  282. I asked a question to an Avatar devotee the other day…

    “If , as I understand, Harry Palmer / Avatar/ Star`s Edge International are committed to Planetary Enlightenment`, has any of the considerable profits been diverted into altruistic acts on the planet for anyone outside of the organization ?

    They agreed it was good question that hadn`t been raised before and would get back to me on that. Nothing back yet but will report…..

  283. Hi Mich
    Consider your $330 well spent. As a previous Wizard from this organisation I advise you to not invest anymore. All the good stuff you have got from Resurfacing. Nothing else is required.
    Toodle Pip

  284. I was chatting with a Psychologist friend yesterday and she told me that her practice has 4 people who have seen them after experiencing psychosis after attending an Avatar Course.
    That’s 4 too many in my book!

  285. Just read a commercially available wellbeing magazine the other day and JT has an article in there with links to Avatar. Bloody Hell, the lengths these guys will go to, to get recruits. I think a letter to the editor is in order!

  286. Well it was actually was “Wellbeing” magazine page 72. Wrote a letter to the editor and informed them to do some investigative work on the author re links to Avatar.

  287. Like ALL programs, it is only as good as what you put into it. I highly recommend doing resurfacing and the Avatar course, only go further if you want to go deeper or teach it. I did resurfacing about 6 times and the Avatar course 3 times over several years, I LOVED every minute of it. In fact I loved every minute of every course I did and I have done all, up to wizards (not Star’s Edge training). People are not stupid, they can invest $400 or so into resurfacing to make up their own minds. Using scare tactics is never wise. The tools are excellent, but what is the point of having excellent tools if you do not use them? I would strongly suggest to everyone to do resurfacing if you are drawn to it. Such a lovely workshop. Avatar is basically about mastery of the will. Harry Palmer is such a genuine and beautiful soul in person. His talks are fascinating. Another great teacher, Dr Francisco Coll, from ALC told me once, investment in your spiritual real estate is the only investment you can take with you. Another wonderful program for those wanting to master communication with your spiritual helpers is the Inner peace Movement and Astro Soul and other departments of study from ALC. I studied all their programs over 8 or so years starting at 17. Francisco Coll passed away in 2000 but his son Francisco (Tiger) Coll has carried on the programs. The best take away there for me is the amazing relationship I have with my spiritual helpers. Without their support life would have been much harder. So comforting to have that clarity with them. Their cleansing technique is effective and fast and I still use it to this day. Another great key from FC is that for every thought you have a feeling and for every feeling you have a thought. It is important to have that balance in check as most of us make decisions out of balance. Francisco’s mantra was “if you feed a hungry man a fish he will only be hungry again tomorrow but if you teach man how to fish he will have the ability to feed himself for the rest of his life and freedom will ensue.” Francisco’s program’s are rather inexpensive and simple but very effective. They have introductory lectures, workshops, profiles, courses and camp programs. A lot of the learning is about systems and clarity and working with those guidelines to achieve the best clarity. At 17, it stopped all the nasty inner talk and it has never returned. ALC is not a fancy corporation, their marketing isn’t slick. You have to remember that marketing is not always a good indicator of a program. Trust your instincts and follow them. Wherever your journey takes you, all the very best and enjoy it to the fullest. Remember, what you get out of anything is what you put in.

    AND I do love Harry Palmer’s mission – to create an enlightened planetary civilization. Starts with the first step to self-awareness.

    Happy journey everyone <3

  288. Hmmm – you know kat, your comment reads like an Avatar promo brochure.

    Do you have any response, I wonder, to the many posts on this Comments thread on the damage Avatar and its courses and manipulations have wreaked on the personal lives of devotees and their family members? Are these people somehow deluded, perhaps? Seems to me their pain is real.

    And fuck that stupid journey metaphor.


  289. Devotees? Ha!!!!!! That’s like me showing you how to meditate or self hypnosis and you saying I’m a cult and you’re a devotee. It’s tools and techniques, pure and simple.

    Oh yes, I enjoyed it and dared to say so therefore I am a marketing brochure – of course!

    Life IS a journey. Maybe for you it’s more painful, given your hatred.

    Did you know it can be dangerous to teach anyone with mental health issues any personal development program? Read the fine print of any contract for any of these programs they all ask if you have ever had any mental health problems and they may not teach you. There is no brainwashing conspiracy – period.

    I find it surprising that such an angry and seemingly unenlightened person is writing poison about personal development programs. Bad experience perhaps? Why don’t you write a blog on the real reason rather than using assumptions and heresay to spread fear and hatred about on a program you have never done?

  290. Hahaha – the slightest challenge and you react with a hissy fit! You’ve obviously gotten sooooooooo much outta Avatar, kat. Like, how to react defensively at the slightest suggestion of criticism.

    Now, let’s have a close look at what I said and what you THINK I said – there’s quite a difference.

    I did not say YOU’RE a marketing brochure. I said your comment reads like an Avatar promo brochure. And if you scrutinise it in the context of this thread and all the angst people have reported suffering at the hands of Avatar, is my observation not a reasonable one?

    And yeah, sure I knew that Avatar has a policy of excluding the mentally ill from their courses. So does Landmark, and as far as I know, every “self-development” course. Big deal. That doesn’t mean they don’t fuck up mentally healthy people. On the weight of evidence in this thread, quite the contrary!

    I have given my reasons for my skepticism about Avatar in my initial post and elaborated further in the Comments thread. You apparently do not share my views. So tell me, why does that make me “an angry and seemingly unenlightened person”? Serious question.

    Why do you consider my comments on Avatar “poison”? Very emotive language you’re choosing there, isn’t it? I merely wrote a wryly critical piece on a group with a founder who appears to be a class one bullshitter, and a class one marketer who is laughing all the way to the bank on his followers’ subscriptions. If I’m wrong, why not clarify where I’m wrong, rather than resorting to personal attack? Maybe you need to do a few more Avatar classes – got a way to go to learn how to function effectively in the real world, it seems.

    You claim “life IS a journey”. I say, no, it’s not. Life is life. The word “journey” in the context you used it is simply a metaphor. Equating life to a journey is so tired and overused – a damnable and obvious cliche that I refuse to use. I am language sensitive. That was part of my objection to the word. Further, and more importantly, use of cliches suggests an unthinking, automated response to life. People who cannot distinguish between cliched metaphor and “life” are easy pickings for the likes of Avatar.

    You know what? In spewing YOUR hate and anger over me simply because I challenged you and do not share your misty-eyed acceptance of Avatar and its “teachings”, you’ve demonstrated a greater propensity for projection than Hoyts Cinemas. That really isn’t much of an advertisement for good ol’ Avatar. You need to set a better example if you wish to be regarded as having any credibility at all.

    Happy New Year kitty kat.

  291. My first remark is in relation to your one sided approach. You Googled him and now you are an armchair expert. Did you speak to people who have done the program to get both sides? All I present is a different perspective, one who has done it.

    Your responses make me laugh. The difference is my response was simply sharing my experience and yours is a fantasy, something that you have pieced together from some various (possibly some fearmongering) sites, a perspective based on information gleaned from others which may or may not be true. And even if they have some truth, how does that weigh against all the other perspectives that you haven’t even bothered to research?

    But the burning question – why all the hatred? Did someone you know get ‘hurt’ by these particular tools and techniques?

    To resort to saying that life is a journey is an overused cliché is a perspective you are well entitled to have but to publicly ridicule someone who has a different opinion is another matter.

    You did Landmark, so did I. I have worked with the best in the development of leadership programs and coaching for corporate executives and you know what is funny? There are a good number of people who know all the words to say, are skilled at teaching it but still have zero capacity to live it.

    Happy new year to you, too, rolenstein.

  292. Dear oh dear, kat, where do I start?

    Firstly: sure, I googled ol’ Harry, and sure, I wrote a post lampooning him. Where do I claim or imply that I’m an expert on him or Avatar – armchair or otherwise? This is YOUR interpretation, and I wonder what it’s based on? Certainly nothing I wrote. It’s some weird perception you’ve coughed up to try to discredit me. Well, sorry hon – anyone can claim anything they want, but it don’t mean a thing if you have zero evidence to support your accusations.

    Ditto Harry and his Estro and Entities nonsense. How can you be so gullible? And please, is it SO difficult to comprehend that this stuff lends itself to sending up and ridicule?

    And nah, my responses didn’t make you laugh. You ain’t fooling anyone with that crap. All anyone needs to do is check out the tone and content of the rest of your comment – your anger and defensiveness is palpable! I got under your skin. It ain’t hard with cultists. Just knock their guru and they start frothing at the mouth and picking up stones to hurl at the heretic.

    And what do you do with your anger and defensiveness – why, again, project it on to me, whom you attribute with “hatred”.

    I don’t have any hate for Harry or Avatar – only contempt. Hate is an awful entirely negative thing – the strongest of negative responses. I really don’t care enough about Harry or Avatar to feel hate. My post was written in a flippant mood, not out of hate. Which is why I didn’t bother to research all those other perspectives you mention. There are plenty of perspectives in this very long comments thread, actually. Why don’t YOU, as I asked before, comment on some of those? You ducked that challenge, so I’ll issue it again. Let’s see what you’re made of.

    Your actions here in projecting your own negative shit all over me while disowning it in yourself is a typical strategy of cultists and the psychologically immature. Anyone who challenges your views becomes The Other, the enemy, the font of all evil in the world, and of all evil in you. It’s handy to have a receptacle for things you can’t abide in yourself. But consider this:

    If you were secure in your beliefs, you would simply dismiss me with a sniff. You certainly wouldn’t bother venting all over the place as you have here, and attacking me personally. Instead, you’d be prepared to engage with me in serous discourse, not with the view to destroying me or my views, but to try to arrive at an understanding of why we differ in our perceptions. Why do I need to point this basic stuff out to you, I wonder? Doesn’t say much for the “developing” you did in Landmark and Avatar. You haven’t moved off first base going by your comments here.

    And BTW, I am no advocate of Landmark. They have some good content in their courses, but are too close to cult for comfort in their organisational structures and dynamics as far as I’m concerned.

    When it all boils down, Avatar, Landmark and all these self-development courses use the same techiques: NLP. They dress it up in different terminologies and back-stories, and the most compelling groups build their products around a “unique” mythology, but look under the bonnet and its the same car.

    There’s something else to huff and puff about. Yeah, yeah, I know – Avatar REALLY is unique. REALLY! I put it to you that you’re too emotionally attached to Avatar to apply any cool-headed logic in your responses to someone like me who challenges your beliefs and the credibility of their source.

    Sigh. When you’re ready for some meaningful discourse, come back. But I fear you’re a long way off that. Like so many web warriors, you’re not interested in genuine argument. There are only two ways on the web these days. It’s either patting each other’s backs and agreeing that we’re all right and the rest are all wrong, or personally attacking anyone who diverges. VERY unhealthy, VERY boring.

    And BTW, could you at least try to spell my name correctly?


  293. For all those that are investing in Avatar currently..

    A tendency I have seen is when an individual has had an `experience` with personal development tools and they then consciously, or unconsciously, immediately accept the organization without any discernment or research and even start recommending it to others with great zeal.

    Regardless of how profound or revealing the individual`s early experience is with Avatar or any programme, if discernment and research of the organization are foregone and the individual becomes so enamoured with their individual and group experience, I can well understand why an individual may want to shield themselves from `uncomfortable truths`.

    Would you recommend the Avatar programme before doing due diligence?

    I suggest doing the following research and see the links and then decide if you are happy to align yourself with the beliefs contained within Avatar.

    Check Harry Palmers past with Scientology and lawsuits.
    Check the recruitment methods and potential to generate an income.
    Check the constant need to re- licence to remain active.
    Speak with long term participants and see who is running a successful Avatar enterprise with verifiable success stories from other spanning 10 -20 years and speak to them too.

    Check the The Karsak of Triton blight bomb story
    The Galactic Federacy
    The planet of Estro-Companion
    Check the similarities of the Operating Thetans of Scientology and the entities that Avatar claim to remove from you.




    To conclude, with reference to L. Ron Hubbard the founder of Scientology ( and science fiction writer – there`s a clue…) that I understand Harry Palmer was involved with:

    “You don’t get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion”.
    Response to a question from the audience during a meeting of the Eastern Science Fiction Association on (7 November 1948), as quoted in a 1994 affidavit by Sam Moskowitz.

    If you can`t be bothered to do this, see it as Avatar bashing and have disregarded doing the research, then I suggest this would be one difference between those that would not invest and those that will. Hope this information helps towards a more informed and balanced understanding.

  294. Thanks for your logical and well-expressed post, Rico Chet. It makes perfect sense to do due diligence on an organisation before shelling out for their courses, and more importantly, entrusting them to assist in your personal development.

    Those who shy away from such research might do well to pause a moment and seriously question themselves as to the reasons for their reluctance. Unfortunately, this is often exceedingly difficult for people who are already emotionally enmeshed and see such a suggestion as unsettling or even hostile to their belief systems.


  295. Having been in the therapy/L&D space for 25 years not much fazes me.

    We find most people who do personal development programs are usually looking for something, e.g. some answers to the meaning of their life, learn new techniques for effective living, meet like-minded people, address personal issues, relieve past trauma, etc. There are many different programs people can do and services they can avail themselves of to achieve these goals.

    What is hot right now in psychology/therapy is talking therapy, mindfulness, bi-lateral stimulation and EMDR. Take EMDR for example, it has been around for over 25 years and was created as a therapy for Vietnam Veterans it has been hugely successful and has been proven to be effective in as few as six sessions. With long complicated trauma using EMDR makes it much faster to release.

    Compassion is very powerful; it helps heal internally and externally.

    Mindfulness has been around for thousands of years – nothing new there, right? What is exciting is that science has been doing a lot of research into its effectiveness. We know that a person can change their brain architecture and with brain architecture, repetition is king. If you practice it for long enough it becomes a trait so in the end, it becomes automatic.

    Mindfulness can be very simple. For example – just take some deep breaths and see how many thoughts come into your head. Don’t fight these thoughts, begin to find ways to observe them and use any modality you like to. You may wish to listen to all the sounds (the cars, the wind, the dog), remove the labels and just experience them. It’s about removing the story connected to these experiences and just purely experience.

    We work with people to reprogram the brain to dis-create the triggers and trauma and then reprogram/restructure the connectivity of the inner process. In other words, do the work and allow the brain to process it and file it away.

    There is much concern about the rise of bullying in schools and on the internet. These bullying incidents create trauma and for those unable to fully process these events, they build up many triggers that cause emotional reactions that for some become overwhelming. More and more people are looking for ways to effectively deal with these triggers to improve their quality of life.

    We find that when the brain is unable to process an event, it can trigger the person to reliving the initial trauma and all the body stresses along with it. They are literally experiencing that event all over again. Unprocessed data may continue to be triggered until it is processed and filed.

    Tools and techniques such as those I have mentioned are becoming increasingly effective at assisting those people to process, heal and move on with their lives. Gestault therapy is another great therapy as are the physical therapies and exercise but the point to all of this and the connection to your post is this – Avatar also teaches similar techniques for effective results.

    I did Avatar 10-15 years ago and I have done all the courses, right through to Wizards. The reason I did Avatar in the first place is because colleagues and friends (most of whom are professional trainers/therapists) told me of their experiences and the techniques used. I was taught by a friend who was an Avatar master who was also a professional educator and train the trainer/course developer.

    I was told 20 years ago that Scientology has some great training programs but my instincts told me the organisation is nutty/off motives etc. so I never considered doing them.

    10 years after that I learned about Avatar and knew that Harry Palmer used to run a Scientology centre but he broke away and wrote his own program. I was told about the program by people who are highly respected in this field (as mentioned above).
    I have done so many programs over the last 25 years that I have lost count (one of the benefits of being in this industry). So Avatar’s handful of courses are small in comparison but I rank them effective overall. Not all the courses will be for everyone but for those looking for effective tools, I highly recommend doing Resurfacing and take it a step at a time.

    I also love hypnotherapy and Gestalt therapy and spiritual cleansing and yoga and too many other things to mention here.

    I have never taught Avatar and have no interest to do so but I thoroughly enjoyed the courses I did 10-15 years ago and still find the techniques effective and I still use some of them to this day.

    Every profession that requires a licence must retain their licence by participating in CPD programs and paying an annual fee. This is standard, so no shock there. In fact not having this strictly policed would be worrying because then you run the risk of having rogue trainers.

    I am an ENTP so I can get enthusiastic but do not interpret my enthusiasm for air-headed stupidity.

    Let people make up their own minds. If it speaks to you then do the first step… or see a Bowen therapist, a talking psychotherapist, do yoga for 90 days straight, NLP or Inner peace Movement group work… whatever floats your boat.

    I’ll leave you with a little phrase I was told as a teenager – no matter where you go or what you do in this world 1/3 will love you, 1/3 will hate you and 1/3 won’t give a damn, so you may as well do whatever it is you really want to do and find the people who love you. There are others out there like you; you just have to look for them. Doing a course of personal interest is a great start.

    I am not staying connected to this site and will not be reading anymore posts because the owner of this blog is not the kind of person I would ever associate with and I do not care for his opinion. At least Chet had the decency to post some information he truly believes will assist others to find the information they seek. As misguided as I think it is, he is entitled to his opinion and some will agree, some wont and others wont care. Same is true with my opinion. So farewell and may you find what you are seeking.

  296. kat,

    Re: Having been in the therapy/L&D space for 25 years not much fazes me.
    Really? I sent you into a hissy fit just by querying your agenda and pointing out the projection, defensiveness and personal attack you resorted to when I challenged the logic and validity of some of your specious assertions. Seems like you need another 25 years “in the therapy/L&D space.”

    I hardly think you have shown up as a credible advisor for folk seeking assistance for trauma counselling, or as an informed source of a potted history of modern approaches in psychology. And frankly, going by your lack of control and inability to meaningfully engage in reasoned argument here, you’re not much of an advertisement for Avatar, especially since you claim to have “done all the courses, right through to Wizards.”

    Re: I was told 20 years ago that Scientology has some great training programs but my instincts told me the organisation is nutty/off motives etc. so I never considered doing them.
    Hahaha! So Scientology is “nutty”, while Avatar – conceived by an ex-Scientologist who believes we come from the distant planet “Estro” and that alien entities are the cause of all our problems – is not?

    Re: I am an ENTP so I can get enthusiastic but do not interpret my enthusiasm for air-headed stupidity.
    I interpreted your air-headed stupidity as air-headed stupidity. Nothing to do with your “enthusiasm.”

    BTW, are you sure you’re an “ENTP”? They’re supposed to be cerebrally quick and given to rigorous debate. You’ve demonstrated neither quality here, gal. In fact, you’ve ducked every invitation to debate I’ve thrown out to you. Like, how you reconcile your advocacy of Avatar with all the misery people on this thread have suffered at the hands of the organisation, directly or indirectly.

    Re: I am not staying connected to this site and will not be reading anymore posts because the owner of this blog is not the kind of person I would ever associate with and I do not care for his opinion.

    Oh, I’m shattered. But I wonder about the cred of someone who claims to be au fait with current trends and practices in psychology, while caterogising someone they do not know as a particular “kind of person.” I put it to you that you have no idea what “kind of person” I am, and that anyone with a background in psych who stereotypes people without substantial evidence – or at all – discredits the field she purports to be an intrinsic part of.

    Of course, I don’t expect a response, since you’ve “disconnected” from this site. But just in case you sneak back for a look, as I highly suspect you will, I trust I’ve given you a little something to think about.

    But don’t get too upset. Harry luvs ya.


  297. Avatar is an offshoot of Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard dabbled in the black arts with the likes of Jack Parsons. He was also an admirer of Aleister Crowley, an avowed satanist who deeply influenced Hubbard’s belief system and writings. For your discernment.

  298. I love your critique of the Avatar cult…Your writing style is very humorous and to the point. Hope others will read and run far, far away from these poor diluted souls.


  299. Thanks for your comments, otter.

    Thanks especially to you, Jr Samples. I don’t exactly endear myself to people with my irony, lampooning tendencies and the odd forcefully expressed view, and the flak that often follows is hardly surprising. I have to say, though, I enjoy receiving positive responses like yours every so often. Makes up for the rest! And nice to encounter someone with a sense of humour!


  300. Thanks for your blog – I have a friend who is an Avatar “Master” and “Wizard” – not many conversations occur without mention of the Avatar “tools”, some quote from Harry Palmer, or some comment about Avatar being the quickest way to acheive “enlighntenment”.

    My friend is a well meaning person, I would say he is idealistic, but also appears to be quite paranoid at times. Although he is supposedly “enlightened” he is often stresed, depressed, and short of money – often behind in rent payments, tax overdue, vehicle not registered and so on.

    Ironically, one of his causes for depression and regret, is that after doing Avatar he left his wife and family to take up with a fellow avatar-ee – a relationshio which ended when she stopped doing Avatar (and another cause for more regret).

    He has borrowed thousands of dollars from me, other friends and avatar-ees to go to Orlando for the courses on several occasions (a long way to go from New Zealand) – to his credit he has paid back the money he borrowed from me, at least.

    The last time he asked me for a loan for Avatar, I didn’t feel right about it, and finally did some research, whereapon I found the information about Harry’s scientology background, so I politely declined the offer and drew his attention to the Avatar Cult info website … however, he tells me that Harry’s past involvement wth scientology is irrelevant, the people who claimed he ripped them off must be lying, and could even be CIA agents being paid to discredit Harry (I’m no fan of the CIA, but you can see what I meant about being paranoid), that It is “weird” of me to bring these issues up with him, and that I don’t have the capacity to understand what he is telling me about Avatar … etc …

    On other occasions he has told me that he has “transgressed” the rules of Avatar apparently by divulging information that he shouldn’t have, and if they found out he could be sued, or worse… more paranoia.

    I have finally realised he is hooked – an avatar addict – and that no amount of rational discussion will change that. I am coming to the conclusion that the thing for me to do is to give my friendship, and respect for his good qualities but not to put up with any more Avatar bullshit.

    As it happens, for other reasons I have recently been going to Al Anon, a 12 step program for friends and family of alcoholics and other addictions and I am finding that to be very helpful, so I would reccommend anyone in this situation to give that a try. It’s a place where you can talk about what you are experiencing and meet other people with similar experiences.

    Once again many thanks for your blog


  301. Hi All
    It’s that time of year again. Wizards course in Florida is just around the corner and Harry and his massive team of cult recruiters are pushing hard to get 5000 people to Wizards. It’s a pity that the efforts of these people were not aimed at doing something really useful for the planet.
    I get bombarded at this time of year with emails encouraging me to get to the Wizards course. I have resisted the urge to unsubscribe from their mailing list as I actually find the emails a helpful reminder of how stupid it was of me to be involved with them. My family is happy to have me back as a normal person who doesn’t drop Avatar speak into daily conversations like I used to.
    It’s been roughly five years since I left the organisation and contrary to what the cult had me believe about “going back to sleep” I am very much awake much better off for not using “the tools”.

    I also note that my good old team of Avatar Masters in Australia and NZ continues to atrophy as many of them after at least 10 years of devotion to the cult are still not achieving their primaries to be a QM or Star’s Edge trainer, are still poor and have left behind them a trail of destruction in the relationships between them and their pre-Avatar friends and family. Some have woken up and moved on with their lives yet sadly some of them are still running intro evenings and going on field trips to try and create new Avatars. Never mind.

    For 2013 The Dr prescribes a daily dose of personal responsibility and an anti bullshit pill to ward off any cult recruiters who are Masters at separating the gullible, and the personal development course junkies from their hard earned (or worse, borrowed) money in the name of Enlightenment.

    Toodle Pip, and may 2013 be a rip snorting goodie for you!

  302. I did the Avatar Course and Masters course near twenty years ago. And at the time, had been working on integrating many different lines of study relative to human experience. I found those in the course most impressed with were those who had done the deepest personal, inner or spiritual work… through a wide range of medium. Those I found the least impressed with it – were those who did not had not developed far enough to understand it or who had not developed the consciousness to be able to apply it to their lives moment to moment.

    I laugh at some of the comparisons and criticisms of it here and elsewhere. I could go point by point and demonstrate the ignorance displayed – but then, what is the point? There is no convincing the sheep of opinions and hearsay that experiencing it for themselves is the only way for them to really discover how it relates to them. :

    But just for fun consider these:

    If someone goes to psychologist or psychiatrist for some “disorder” after Avatar – you can rest assured they had the “disorder” before Avatar. Yes, let’s ignore that!

    Is there a psychologist or psychiatrist whose income is not directly proportional to the continued dependence of their clientele upon them? Yes, lets get their opinion!

    How many skills, trades and professions require licensing and re-licensing at various intervals, as well as, continuing ed? Yes, let’s ignore that!

    Is there any religion or tradition that wants you to discover how to be more independent of the indoctrination they have instilled in you? Yes, let’s get their opinion!

    Is there any comment or criticism in this or any blog that is not an expression of the contrast between an individual’s own individual indoctrination, conditioning and education – and the work of Harry Palmer. Yes, let’s ignore that!

    What was Jesus involved in before he took off working independently?
    What was Buddha involved in before he took off working independently?
    Etc., Etc., Etc.

    How does what they were involved in before diminish their work, unless the speaker has judgments about what they were involved in before?

    What is the ratio of those who derived benefit and those that do not?
    What is the ration of those who have participated to those that cry “cult”?

    I have explored the work of many individuals and have found that popularity lends to a small segment of those who come in contact with it boarding the cult train.

    But, the cult train is usually a meeting place of the ignorant listening to the ignorant – sharing their opinions with those who make decision based upon the opinions of others rather than through their own personal experience.

    Lastly, why would someone post a line of study with a warning “this is a cult”. Well, it is obviously an expression of their not perceiving they received value for their investment – but more than that – they want to protect you from what they imagine it to be. Thus, what their post really indicates is their perception of YOU the reader. They must perceive YOU as too ignorant or stupid to enter into it yourself without having the experience they have. And regard those listening to their opinions – rather then exploring the experience for themselves – I guess they are right.

  303. somelk – a classic example of “avatar-speak”

    1. blame the victim – “those who have problems after the course had problems before” … but that’s why they did the course – it’s supposed to enable you to solve all your problems and become enlightened … “the most quickest powerful … etc”

    2. confuse the issue by comparing apples with oranges – i am a tradesman and of course i do regular refreshers on safety, new regulations, new technology etc., so that i can be competent at my trade … it’s a completey different thing

    3. ignore the facts and turn the argument back onto the person making the criticism – aka “argumentum ad hominem”

    4 and by the way don’t forget to compare harry with jesus and buddha …

    doctor – do they really get 5000 to the wizards course ? at $7500 each ??
    had to double check my calculator … that is $37,500,000
    are meals and accomodation included ?
    and does harry have shares in the hotel ?

  304. Hi there K
    If they get 5000 wizards to the course there will be less than 1000 newbies forking out the $7500 fee. The reviewers pay only a review fee but must stay at the Hotel the course is at or they get whacked with a production fee for staying offsite in much cheaper accommodation.
    I don’t know if Stars Edge get a cut of the fees. I think it is much more likely that they promise the Hotel a minimum number of rooms in return for the free use of the conference Center which would normally cost squillions to hire ( what Hotel is going to turn away someone who can promise a minimum of 1000 rooms for 13 days?)
    Meals and accommodation fees are the responsibility of the student so you can imagine that a minimum of 13 days accommodation and meals is going to leave a sizeable hole in your wallet.

    As for you somelk, I met plenty of pseudo intellectual spiritual seekers in my time working for good ole Harrydiculous and you smell just like one!
    You, my deluded chap are a diddle brain. Like Harry, The Dr doesn’t have a cure for cancer, or for that matter your stupidity. Can I interest you in The Wizards Course perhaps, or maybe the Pro Course, or even the Personal Integrity Course?
    If you are wondering why I mention so many courses that I have sold to people like you then perhaps you could read the early transcripts of Harry speaking to Avatars telling them that the Avatar Course was all there is and that you don’t need anything else. I guess that was before Harry learned about Brand Extensions and realised just like every other snake oil salesman that you could repackage the same stuff with a few added flavours and you could get people to buy more.
    I am one of the privileged few who got to work behind the scenes and see Harry and Avra for what they really were. Harry ain’t no Holyman but he is kinda cool as he makes nerdy and dorky and uncoordinated seem quite acceptable, even loveable. Others on this post have described Avra and I can’t say there descriptions are inaccurate.

    Golly gosh The time of year for the Wizards course really stirs the fruit loop soup!

    Good day to you all ( yes that includes you Avatar devotee nutbars too!)

  305. Dr. Strangelove,

    All my research indicates Jesus and Buddha were just regular people trying to convey to those around them how to improve the quality of lives and raise their consciousness. What beliefs were you (and the other cult speakers) dipped in? And by whom were you dipped?

    Perhaps direct the scrutiny you direct to the perspective of others – toward your own beliefs and you may discover many interesting things.

    There is something called the principle of scale…
    Avatar was stated as all one needs (scale of one)
    Masters pertains to sharing it with others (more than one)
    Wizzard’s pertains to collective consciousness ( all or all capable)
    Thus, Avatar the only course is all the individual needs*.

    By the way, I tend not to agree with that* because I explore many amazing lines of research, integration and development of consciousness – and develop line of study also – thus, I am not a Avatar devotee.

    None the less, I recognize that some folks are best left in the darkness of their own ignorance – so I say, “Thanks for sharing your perspectives and good day”. .

  306. Somelk
    In response to your question “What beliefs were you dipped in?”
    One of the things that fascinates me about Avatar and Harry’s teachings is the idea that everything is a belief and that beliefs precede experience. The exploration of beliefs includes investigating whether the beliefs you hold are deliberate beliefs or the result of indoctrination.
    I found the alignment created amongst the Avatar network members was actually the result of indoctrination more than anything else.
    The concept that beliefs precede experience in Harry’s teachings is treated as a “truth” and you cant really be an Avatar Master or even successfully complete the Avatar course unless you agree with this perspective.
    My own experience is that sometimes beliefs determine my experience and sometimes they don’t. I didn’t need to create a belief as a child in order to experience fear or pain. My first “fright” as a child was probably more to do with my bodies natural response to a threat than a belief.
    One of the things that fooled me was that in the Resurfacing Course Harry explores methods of indoctrination. My initial response was that you wouldn’t tell people how indoctrination works if you were going to attempt to indoctrinate them as they would be aware of your attempts and your indoctrination wouldn’t work. Unfortunately that idea is not accurate. I find it similar to ideas like hypnosis and other mind control methods where the knowledge of what is being attempted is not necessarily a defense to the tactics being used.
    Typically Avatar Masters believe they are free of indoctrination ,and I would propose, are blind to the indoctrinations of Harry, Avra and the entire Avatar Network of Trainers, Masters etc
    As an Avatar Master I was consistently exposed to an indoctrination of beliefs by those higher up in the chain of control than me. Any questioning of someone with a higher level of responsibility than me was automatically treated as an “Out of Integrity Issue” that I had. In some cases it was a projection of my stuff onto others, in other cases it wasn’t.
    So in summary in response to your question “What beliefs were you dipped in?” the answer is “Too many to list”
    In response to the question ” By whom were you dipped” the answer is “Many, many people above me in the chain of command all the way up to the top man Harry”

    My experience of Avatar and the Stars Edge Network is that its is full of indoctrination of beliefs. The scariest bit is that Harry and Stars Edge protect themselves from accountability by insisting that any questioning of Harry and his motives means that the questioner is out of integrity. This is a classic ploy of cults to protect themselves from rebellion in the ranks.

    There are people who get benefit from the Avatar Course and who seem to leave more “whole” and more awakened. My intention is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say it’s all bad. I have experienced some benefits from the Avatar Course but I have also experienced some harm. The ones who seem to benefit greatly are the ones who attend the course, pick up some tools to improve their lives and move on not needing to stay connected to the Avatar network. The others who get attracted into the network to become fulltime Masters are the ones who seem to leave the biggest trail of destruction behind them.

    I think the point of this thread by Rolan was to challenge the more wacky and “out there” views associated with Avatar. It certainly seems to have succeeded in that!

    There are numerous posts from people who have been harmed in some way by their association with Avatar and yet when they mention this the response from the Pro Avatar crew appears to be a regurgitation of Harry’s teachings and a general lack of compassion and sometimes an outright attack.

    Peoples experience of Avatar good and bad should allow potential course attendees to do due diligence before making up their minds.

    By the way I think that Jesus and Buddha were anything but regular people.

    Toodle Pip

  307. Wow, glad to see this blog still going strong! Thanks Rolan! I haven’t said it in a while so I feel the need to let it out again…AVATAR IS A JOKE!

    Kat, I have done the course and I learned how deceitful the Masters and Trainers are. Enough said. Good luck to you though. I hope you don’t experience the deceit I did.

    Oh, I see Harry has a new book out. Great, I am just about out of toilet paper.

  308. Hi Avatar is a Joke.

    Yeah, still going strong and I will be leaving the thread open indefinitely.

    What genre is Harry’s new book? Scifi? Fantasy? Comedy? Farce? Whatever, doubtless dunny paper’s far cheaper.


  309. And isn’t it convienent that Harry’s new book was released at the Wizards course where all the brain-washed suckers would undoubtably buy it? I will give Harry credit here…he is a hell of a smart business man. Too bad he manipulates people into giving him their money.

  310. There are in principle only 2 types of people: ignorant souls and those who are just a bit smarter to effectively abuse the first category.

    Another fact is that the human race is a group or tribe oriented species pur sang. Add to this that most people love it when they have the feeling that the group is actually listening , supporting and confirming their personal beliefs and voila, a religion is born. Now you just need the smarter people to steer this in any direction they want and you’re in trouble. Why? Because you just lost your autonomy, something movements like Avatar ironically claim to reinforce.

    Summarized: Never take anything for granted in life, think for yourself and be critical, very critical. Life requires a certain effort, so do learn and and do not do any stuff to people you wouldn’t like them to do to you. I do not need, not want a religion or movement that makes a shitload of money on supporting my personal beliefsystem. 🙂

  311. This is a question for Kat, who appears to have done the Avatar courses:
    Is is or is it not true that Harry Palmer claims that we all came from a distant planet, “Estro”, and that we are all afflicted with inner “entities” from other worlds that are the cause of our problems?

    I’m really curious, Thanks 🙂

  312. Dear Indeed Intrigued
    I know you directed your question at Kat but I can’t help wading in and giving you my 2 pence worth.

    The whole Estro thing although it appears in a piece of reading in the Wizards Course doesn’t really get any airtime. This piece is a passage of writing from Harry probably written way back when he had just left scientology. Who knows his mental state when he wrote it? He claims his discovery of the Avatar Materials was as the result of hours in a float tank. There are quite a few pieces of weird stuff amongst the Avatar teachings and its a bit hard to sort the psychobabble from the patently ridiculous. As you can imagine an organisation promoting that we are in existence because of some weird sci fi event in the dark dim past probably wouldn’t attract many new converts. I imagine that many of these writings are as a result of Harry’s desire to not only write Science Fiction, but to live it.
    Only people who make it to the Wizards course are ever likely to come across it and even then only in their reading of the Wizards Course materials which are hundreds of pages long. By the time I first encountered the idea I was so indoctrinated in the “everything is just a belief” view of the world even weird beliefs form Harry didn’t phase me. After all the belief that we came from the Planet Estro was just a belief too wasn’t it? You can see the problem here can’t you?

    It is one of the things that frequently comes up in discussion by people who have done some research online about Harry Palmer and the Stars Edge network. The interesting thing here is that in all my time as an Avatar Master the whole Estro thing was never discussed as part of the course work or never even came up in casual conversation.Harry never talked about it, the trainers never talked about it, my fellow Masters never talked about it. I guess by the time you get to Wizards you have been so deeply dipped in Avatar teachings that your critical thinking has almost been completely shut down. You will also have first hand experience of how any questioning of Harry and his sanity will have a Star Edge Trainer or Master assigning you a bunch of processes (hours in duration) looking at your own integrity.You soon learn that questioning anything in Avatar is not only unwise it just isn’t worth the hassle. I am sure many other Masters thought some of the stuff was freakin weird but they too learned to keep it to themselves.

    On the topic of entities that’s a different story. It’s one of the last exercises you encounter on the Wizards course and it’s billed by the Trainers as one of the best bits. The Entity Handling Procedure or EHP for short (which has been published on other sites) deals with the idea that many of the things that cause us problems in life are in fact the result of a troublesome entity. It’s a similar idea to those extremist Christians who believe every problem in the world is the result of a demon. Every attendee of the Wizards course (provided that they haven’t already become seriously unglued!) will be encouraged to spend at least a day pairing up with another Master and running the process to exorcise these troublesome entities. Some people have an enjoyable exploration of the phenomenon and what occurs as a result of running the process. A number will go home and encounter mental instability for a couple of weeks, a few will feel suicidal after the course and a few (no one actually knows how many) will experience full blown psychosis, but you wont hear about these people as any suggestion that the course exercises brought this on will be treated by any Master or Trainer as a indication or evidence of a prior mental problem. The embarrassment and stigma of a mental break means that those who do experience one are unlikely to be very public about it. Here I quote from a previous post “If someone goes to psychologist or psychiatrist for some “disorder” after Avatar – you can rest assured they had the “disorder” before Avatar.

    As a side note the original entity handling procedure used in the earliest Wizards courses often left participants in a worse state after using it than they were in beforehand. Obviously this wan’t a good outcome and Harry updated the process to theoretically produce better results.

    So in summary Indeed Intrigued, yes Harry does claim to have had some experience that gave him the knowledge that we came from some weird event in some other universe on the planet Estro. He also has created a process called the EHP (Enitity Handling Procedure) to allow Wizards to get rid of troublesome entities.

    Most intriguing of all is that people with University Degrees, and other smart people who should know better, suspend their critical thinking when it comes to Avatar (and of course it is designed to do that!) and become compliant and willing followers of Harry and Star’s Edge.

    I have always hoped that this thread started by Rolan way back, will enable some people to be better informed than I was when I started my Avatar journey.

    The secrecy of the Avatar Materials and their contents prevent many people to make an informed decision about it’s suitability.

    By all means stay curious and intrigued, but be wary because as a previous Avatar Master I know that people who are curious and intrigued make great Avatar prospects!

    Avatar is way more successful promoting itself as the most powerful personal development on the planet than it would be as a Religion claiming we all came from the planet Estro.

    What you believe matters and does have a large impact on those around you, so be very careful what it is that you choose to believe.

    Toddle Pip

  313. Dear Indeed Intrigued

    I have come across Avatar Course material from a site that looks to expose this organization and clearly states that this is indeed the case re Estro etc – I can not verify the source though.

    I have raised the whole planet Estro /Galactic Confederacy/ entities claim with two Avatar devotees and they were not aware of it and dismissed my query. I only learnt of it from someone who claims to have done the courses and was quoting directly from the course material.
    I wonder if this material has been withdrawn from current circulation or is only available once someone has been processed through certain layers of initiation.

    One of the two people I mentioned does currently listen to tapes relating to the Galactic Confederacy. I only realized some months later from when I first came across the Avatar material that I became aware of the link between the Stars Edge course and this alleged galactic confederacy . They never mentioned this when I queried them. I have seen the course material and there is clear reference to removing entities.

    I know someone who is currently experiencing depression and mental instability after 10 years of Avatar, and I am seeing at close quarters the delusional. depressive and volatile state they are in, notwithstanding the strain and alienation from family and the $25- $30,000 `investment` over this period.

    Will be back with the findings from my most recent investigation that was most revealing.

    Best to all

  314. my understanding is that by the time you get told about that stuff you will already have signed some legal or quasi-legal document and have the idea that you could be sued large amounts of money for revealing that information … and worse you could possibly face the threat of some sort of karmic / cosmic retribution for your transgressions.

    so don’t hold your breath waitng for kat to reply

  315. Someone I know is currently down at the Avatar course. She is a “wizard” and brought one “student” down to Orlando for the 9-day intro course.

    She is fully indoctrinated and uses “Avatar speak” in just about every conversation that I have with her. She believes in this crap so much that she just went down there for her 3rd round of Wizards courses in February. The first day back she began her recruiting efforts.

    I’m very sad to she how this cult-like organization has affected her. After coming back from the “Wizards” course, she spends all of her free time either watching videos of Harry Palmer speaking, talking about the group and how great it is, or doing her “work”. I spent some time sifting through her “work” materials and was not surprised to see how much emphasis the organization places upon recruiting others, overcoming their objections, etc.

    In the past, she was involved with this cult and it caused her to be ruined financially. Afterwards, she stopped being a part of Avatar. After a couple of years away, she is back into it. She is convinced she will succeed this time because she is doing this for the “right reasons.” I am convinced that this organization will ruin her life again.

    Everyone should stay away from organizations like Avatar that require you to go to multiple classes in order to “advance”. These classes teach the same things, over and over again. It prevents people from focusing on their careers and other relationships with the false claims that their lives will somehow be permanently better if they continue taking course after course, just to advance to the “next level.” It is very sad.

  316. I know someone how is down at the Avatar course right now with a “student.” After spending 13 days in February at the “Wizards” course (her 3rd time attending the same course, by the way), she came home and immediately tried to recruit me to go to the next course (9 days in Orlando). She also tried to recruit my girlfriend, other people that she does business with, etc.

    Her past interactions with this cult ruined her financially. She left the group for a couple of years, but is back into it again. All she talks about is this course and how it is the best way to do “work” on yourself. She spends a great deal of her free time listening to Harry Palmer speeches or reading Avatar materials.

    I spent some time perusing through her “work” materials and found it to be nothing more than babble, with a very strong emphasis on how to con others into going to this course.

    I’m dismayed that she is so gullible, but cannot control her actions, of course. I will lay odds that within a year she is financially ruined by this group again. Very, very sad.

  317. I’m glad to have found this blog! I’ve been reading about this Avatar issues for a while now. I have a friend that is into that. He doesn’t talk to me about it but he does spend a good amount of time doing these courses over and over, almost everyr three months, and he is gone on that for almost an entire week at a time. I have no idea how he can affort that as his income is for sure much less than mine and I can’ t be away from work for that long! Anyway, the more I read about it, the more ridiculous it sounds to me. I haven’t done Avatar myself but for what I’ve read, it all gets messed up once they start talking about “enlightened planetary civilization”. That sounds to crazy for me to digest. I guess they may have some good tools for dealing with some life issues and techniques, etc.. which is probably a positive thing about it…. but the planetary civilization is just too much. The other thing that bothers me is how my friend’s main circle of friends is the Avatar friends….I is like he is limiting himself to socializing and interacting with all those “enlightened” friends of his….And that truly worries me. Any suggestions?

  318. Concerned friend,

    It sounds like your friend is past the point of no return. Sorry to have to say this but Avatar has sucked him in and nothing you can say or do will change his mind. One thing about Avatar, especially when someone “buys” into it is masters and trainers will be in constant contact with them. It is a sleek marketing tool Harry Palmer has established. Who wouldn’t want to be in a group that shows you so much attention? As long as your friend speaks kindly of Avatar, and more importantly, keeps giving them money, he will have unlimited support. But begin questioning and doubting the process and cut off the money flow, and watch these same masters and trainers vanish into thin air.

    One of 2 things will happen with your friend. Either he will come to his senses when the financial reality of Avatar hits him. Or his circle of friends will keep encouraging him that Avatar is his only answer and he will keep spending money going to their events.

    Also, I have done the course and had to sit through countless Harry Palmer videos and I still have no clue what an Enlightened Planetary Civilization is.

  319. Concerned Friend & Avatar is A Joke,

    Avatar is a joke is 100% correct. They will be in constant contact with your friend. They use avenues that breach your privacy to maintain a type of surveillance on students and ensure they stay on “the path”.

    In one instance they were getting updates from the travel agency to ensure students were still going to courses. As soon as the student cancelled bookings, the agency rang the masters, then the masters rang students.

    As for recruiting, well in reality they disconnect students from the real world and when your financial income stream is disrupted, they only real choice you have is to recruit. That is unless you were already independently wealthy.

    You can start disrupting their hold on your friend by playing them at there own game. Get hold of the materials from sources available on the internet. It runs like a script, as soon as you start asking questions they resort to preaching the materials. Then you have confirmation of the crap that is contained inside. When students read the materials during the course, they are told to read “in feel” which basically means you are in a meditative type state and don’t really interpret or question the crap.

    As soon as you can disrupt the masters patterns you can start to re-activate the students logical brain.

    Please read a book from Steve Hassan – Releasing the Bonds. It is a fantastic resource.

  320. Hi There HelpMeFightAvatar

    It’s an interesting comment you make about reading the materials “in feel”. I personally found many of the written materials unintelligible. My critical mind would be pooh poohing all the weird stuff but I somehow managed to suspend my disbelief so that I didn’t get stuck. My initial desire to progress and complete the course became more important to me than understanding what was written.

    As a Master I once heard a Trainer offer the suggestion to tell the students to read the materials in feel if they were having trouble understanding it (This was most often used with students who were lagging behind and who would most probably have difficulty with reading in general).

    I didn’t think much of it at the time but on reflection I can see that it is possible that it may have been a deliberate attempt by the Trainers to get the students to absorb the material with their subconscious rather than conscious mind. It seems a bit too devious and cunning for me to believe but it wouldn’t be the first time I have been fooled.

    On the other hand I have no idea if the instruction to read the materials in feel is an instruction passed down by Harry or if it was just a random idea expressed by someone and then parroted by the rest. I am embarrassed to admit that it was an instruction I gave to students without ever examining the sense, or more likely, nonsense of it.

    Part of the danger of being part of these LGAT groups like Avatar is that its so easy to suspend the critical mind and blindly follow the crowd as the desire to conform in order to fit in and belong is often way stronger than the desire to make sense of things.

    Rather sheepishly,
    The Dr.

  321. Hey Dr.

    It seems strange to me that as a master or former?? master, you aren’t more aware of the term “in feel”.

    Can’t remember what part of Avatar, I think it was section 2 – “The Exercises” where you perform a exercise similar in name to above. This exercise is a form of yoga meditation which was later discovered by reading a meditation book. The idea is to switch off logical thought processes and then the subconscious mind is more receptive to suggestion without questioning and acceptance. The idea to read in “feel” refers to this. Otherwise everyone would think the material is unintelligible and walk out of the course. 🙂

    Seriously read Steve Hassan’s book, there is some awesome content and the three step process of unfreezing someones “persona” (not the right word but close) the messing with the mind and a whole heap of suggestion and the re-freezing the new persona.

    To put it plainly, yes it is cunning and unfortunately you were fooled. The other danger of these things is that Masters as you are known, recruit and teach the materials to others without knowing the more sinister motives behind the exercises.

    Steve Hassan was once a member of the Moon Cult as can be read in his book and he recites one of the exercises to perform on recruits, which he later found out was an hypnosis technique.

    I despise avatar with a passion! Luckily I was not indoctrinated as I stopped just after resurfacing shortly after a few of the exercises in Section 2. A loved one wasn’t so lucky and the journey to get them out was long and hard.

  322. Dear HelpMeFightAvatar

    As a former Master I am very aware of the term “in feel”. I didn’t mean to give you the impression that I wasn’t.

    My comments were more about the instruction for students to read the materials “in feel” which is an interesting application of a Feel Its exercise but I don’t recall it being an official part of the training for Masters.

    Lots of people do exercises like Yoga and Meditation to quiet the mind and this is often seen as a desirable state where one’s awareness seems to be heightened. The somewhat paradoxical flip side of this is that when you are in this supposedly more aware state that you are also more vulnerable to suggestion and it is a state that people like hypnotists and cult leaders use deliberately.

    The various tools and mental processes that people use to induce various mental states are not bad or evil but I do agree that the motive of the person using them is very important. Look at all the websites that try to teach people how to use covert hypnosis techniques to pick up girls and score more often. I believe your intention does matter!

    When I was a Master I had no intention to brainwash people or manipulate them I just wanted to help them. I didn’t have sinister intentions and I don’t believe that the majority of my fellow Masters had either.

    Harry on the other hand has a deliberate agenda and this appears to be around creation of wealth for his privately owned corporation Star’s Edge, and the creation of an Enlightened Planetary Civilization whatever that is. I am sure he will achieve the former but not the latter.

    Take care old chap,
    The Dr

  323. Speaking from experience and having unfortunately taken most of the Avatar Courses in 2004 I must agree that Avatar is a complete con job .At one stage I was wrecked and mentally unwell after the professional course and got no sympathy or help. In another course I went out of body and they spent a good while trying to get me back to this world feeling curtains and handbags to bring me down to earth and I was allowed to continue the Course.I met Harry Palmer and it is clear to me he is controlled by his wife who runs the show and is ruthless. It was only later and too late when I discovered harry had been a Scientologist. What harm people will do for money has no end.The only good thing about Avatar was the very beautiful people-i mean good looking doing the courses-no doubt very rich ,lost souls-enough said and thanks for exposing this cultish fraud-Patrick (DUBLIN,IRELAND)

  324. Hi, wow this has been an interesting thread full of passionate responses. There seems to be a lot of judgement for and against avatar courses. For some reason, this doesn’t seem very enlightened, though my perspective comes from just another human being that wants peace and love for all the creatures I share this planet with.

    I hope you all have love,happiness and success in your lives, whatever that means to you.

    If this makes just one person smile, it was worth the effort to write it.

  325. Hi there.
    My partner is currently on a 10 day Avatar course. I believe she has been through the whole process up to Wizards…Is that the highest level? Think so. She tells me that once you’ve got to that point all the courses are free. I’ve never believed it, but I’d be grateful if someone who has done this stuff can confirm. I’m so worried that she’s being brain-washed. I keep saying to her that this cr*p is sterilising her true personality; it’s all so fake, like some big act. She is slightly vulnerable and is increasingly unbalanced.

    Any advice greatly appreciated.

  326. Hi there Busby
    Wizards is the highest level of course available to members of the public. There are other courses for people who are trying to achieve the status of Stars Edge Trainer but these are by invitation only and not promoted in any way.

    If your partner has paid for Wizards then she will not have to pay the full course fee to attend again. Sounds like free doesn’t it? Well not quite. I think you get one free review for most of the courses and then you have to start paying a review fee. Probably less than $1000 but definitely not free.

    The changes you see in her personality are common for anyone that has made it to the level of Wizards. By that time the level of brainwashing she will have encountered is huge and she will no doubt parrot varies terms and “Avatar Speak” when faced with any questioning or challenging of what she is up to with Avatar. At this point many people are beyond being able to be helped with reason and rational discussion I have found them to be much like the fervent believers in religious groups or the followers of cults. I wish there was a magic pill or potion I could offer you to help your partner snap out of it but sadly there is no easy way to get devotees to wake up such is the level of indoctrination they will have experienced by the time they have made it to Wizards.

    The unbalanced stuff that you refer to is also common amongst Avatar devotees as many of the exercises you encounter on the Avatar Courses can end up with you becoming slightly unhinged or for some a more extreme mental breakdown can occur.

    Advice for you is tricky. Many followers of this blog post started by Rolan years back have been in the same situation where they have watched loved ones succumb to the Avatar ideology and some have had their relationships destroyed as a result.

    If you read back through the older comments in this thread you will be able to gain quite a bit of insight about what others have experienced.

    This site http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeta/avatar/avatar-introduction.html is a site providing general info on the Avatar Materials but is probably more useful for scaring off potential Avatar candidates.

    My site harleystrangelove.wordpress.com which I started after being inspired by the number of people asking questions on Rolan’s site is a mixture of information provided by me as a former Avatar, Master, Wizard and also dedicated to the sharing of experiences of people involved in Avatar and people who know someone involved in Avatar.

    I know how frustrating it must feel to see someone you love changing and not for the better as they spend more and more time on Avatar courses.

    The bad news is that for many the relationship between an Avatar and non Avatar will end because the life journey’s they are on will take such divergent paths.

    The good news is that the fall out rate for Avatar Masters is incredibly high as only a few of them can make a go of earning their income from delivering Avatar Courses.

    I hope that your partner gets the wake up call before she gets too deep into Avatar and too damaged as a result.

    Best Wishes
    The Dr.

  327. Hey Busby / anyone else involved in this discussion,

    As you’ve read from others already the Avatar course was designed by major influencers of, and based on, Scientology. Most people don’t know this but Scientology (and founder L. Ron Hubbard specifically) has it’s foundations in Satanism and the Occult. That’s some scary stuff right there! For more information on that Good Fight Ministries did a short video about it – http://theater.goodfight.org/?vdId=Scientology

    If I were you I would recommend to her that she sit down with a licensed Psychologist and probably also a very experienced and well-educated Pastor and discuss the things she’s learning with them. You could present it as a “learning experience” for her to share her ideas on self-improvement and see what their input is. At the very least it will demonstrate that she is still open to “outside” influence, and still has the ability to challenge ideas, concepts, strategies with accepting everything on blind-faith. Good luck brother and God bless.


  328. You idiots, all,who are judging something before experiencing it. Go on further into your blindness and ignorance.

  329. Wow Sandra, how enlightened of you. People have shared their experiences on this blog and you call them idiots. By definition an idiot is a person of the lowest order in a former classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years and an intelligence quotient under 25. This would make it impossible for them to read this blog let alone contribute to it.
    As for you I would say that your reply probably puts you in the category of moron which is a person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education.
    May you be happy and well.
    Toodle Pip
    The Dr

  330. I think there is a difference between blindly following a perspective as absolute truth and recognizing something as a tool to use. EVERY perspective can be taken too far when one doesn’t take into account opposing views. Hope can be nieve, cynicism can be sabotaging. We each are responsible for our actions, our relationships with others, and the influence we have on our community. Thanks for your posts and sharing your opinions. Arts AND science…emotion AND judgement…faith AND objectivity…dreams AND responsibility. In the end, it is what we choose to do with the information and resources we have and what future/concept we are trying to support.

  331. Avatar enlightened me, all right. I was very involved in Avatar for a few years, got very involved with many in the organization. Spent years living with one person and a relationship with another. It wasn’t until I reached out after realizing I kept being told I had an issue and a problem, where infidelity was being hidden and constant abusive behaviors where being practiced, I spoke to someone who knew about psychological abuse and was told I was having a daily form of psychological violence being practiced on me called gas lighting, I was living inside an abuse system with both these people called narcissistic and sociopathic abuse. Avatar was where I ended up in the violence of sociopathy and gas lighting, never even knew this type of abuse existed before. The abuse has woken me up, I now know there are those who pretend one thing while practice another and these courses fail to mention not everyone is good intentioned, some use Avatar as a place to be part of a social circle, meet intelligent, interesting, attractive folks yet practice perverse violence behind closed doors and then use a technique called gas lighting to switch everything around and pretend the person they abuse is a using them. More people need to know about narcissistic and sociopathic abuse and violence. Avatar was where I met people who practice this abuse. Many do not have the issues and problems they are being told they have, they are being gas lighted by a narcissist or sociopath, so someone can get away with whatever they want and parade as something else. Avtar does not mention this type of abuse exists.

  332. I have not visited this blog or some time now but I am glad to see the good doctor is still in there ‘fighting the good fight’! My connection to Avatar has diminished somewhat as the person close to me who was closely aligned with this stuff seems to have let it go of it.

    I am very glad that has occurred as I was slowly going mad watching the psychological disintegration of one very near and dear to me who simply parroted back slogans to me for every genuine inquiry into the meaning of this garbled rubbish (Avatar).

    Doctor Strangelove, I wonder if you could answer me this: do you still feel a ‘connection’ to Avatar/Harry, or is it all part of history now. I ask this because some of your early posts sounded very much like some of the ‘Avatar devotees’ who appear occasionally in this thread and who you frequently disarm with common sense/logic/clear thinking etc. Has anything ‘stuck’ with you from the materials you studied?

  333. Hi there Aghast,
    You pose a good question. When I started contributing to this blog it was probably in the early days of me having left Avatar. Most of my positive feelings toward Avatar were due to the fact that I really cared about the other Masters I frequently worked with. The majority of them were well intentioned and had kind hearts. There were a few despicable people involved but probably the despicable ones were there in the same proportion to the number of despicable people in the general population.

    The other positive feelings or thoughts I had towards it were based on dealing with a couple of significant life issues I dealt with on the course that had lasting impact for me. It is possible that I may have had these breakthrough moments on other self improvement courses but the fact that I experienced them on Avatar had me believe that Avatar had something special going for it.

    I feel no connection to Harry or the Avatar materials today. I know that using some of the tools and processes does change one’s experience of life and one’s perspective. I have always been wary of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The Avatar course is not all good nor is it all bad. I have often wondered what to recommend for people considering taking the course. I know that people can benefit from the experience and leave the course having made gains and psychologically unharmed but others can have horrific experiences and some end up hospitalised. I now view doing the Avatar course like doing recreational drugs. It will alter your consciousness but the quality of the experience is unpredictable and worth being very careful about.

    I dont have any contact with my old crew from Avatar. I don’t use any of the tools and processes anymore. I don’t recommend to anyone that they do the Avatar Course. I don’t feel any connection with Harry, Avra, or any of the Masters in the Stars Edge network. I wrote my own blog as a Public Service to enable people to make a more informed choice about doing the course and what they may encounter.

    What has stuck with me is that what we believe creates a filter or a lens that we view and experience life through. Changing the beliefs does change our experience of life. Changing beliefs is not as easy as Harry makes it out to be using his tools and processes. Being an active Master exposes you to endless hours of indoctrination and that’s why most Masters sound like parrots as they repeat the Avatar indoctrinations (Avatar Speak)

    I agree with Harry that differences in what we believe is the major cause of conflict in the world. He sells Avatar as a solution to the problem and dresses it up as contributing the the creation of an Enlightened Planetary Civilisation. I think that the EPC thing is bullshit (I always have)

    I hope this answers your question Aghast and wish you well for the future.
    Toodle Pip
    The Dr.

  334. Hi Doctor – I looked into Avatar a few years ago – a friend who is deeply into it was trying to persuade me to go, but I had some reservations about it and found out about Harry’s scientology background etc., – my impression from some things i read was that Harry has picked bits and pieces from various sources, e.g. from psychotherapy, eastern spiritual practices, plus scientology of course, so it isn’t surprising that some of the methods will give some positive results – but I think Harry is using those things for his own advantage, to make money obviously, and to entrap people into his cult – e.g. doing exercises that can open you up into a vulnerable space, then making suggestions to people when in that state, which is nothing less than a form of psychological abuse.

  335. I posted a question but I don’t see it. Was there something about it that prevents it from being posted? I can re-word it, if necessary but I am honestly seeking answers to my questions. Thank you.

  336. My question has to do with entities. If someone in an Avatars life is treating them badly, a non Avatar member, and keeping things from them that would hurt them, is the avatar allowing that to happen by not discreating? If the avatar discovers this, how do they view it? Are they to blame or do they blame the non Avatar? Do they forgive the hurtful behavior or do they cut them off?

  337. To all the people taking information about Avatar from this site…be warned…the person who started it is telling terrible lies about Avatar… It’s so sad for me to read all of this. I did Avatar two years ago and it has absloutely saved my marriage and my relationship with my 3 children, and my in-laws. My marriage was never going to survive before I did Avatar, despite marriage councelling and psychotherapy. I gained more self-awareness in 3 months than I ever did in 15 years of psychotherapy. I am now an Avatar master and have done all the courses (except Integrity which I’m really looking forward to). There is absolutely nothing harmful about the Avatar work, whatsoever. People continue with the courses and their involvement with the Avatar network because they believe in it and because they find it helps them and the people around them (fellow Avatars or not), not because anyone is forcing them to. I feel so much less delusional now than I did pre-Avatar. It has given me clarity about myself, others and life in general. I have never felt more stable or positive about the future. The only people who feel threatened by Avatar are those who are scared to look at what they would need to in order to be able to continue with the courses. It’s perfectly reasonable for some people not to like Avatar and, in that case, Avatar is not for them. But I have read several blatant, very dark lies indeed on here about Harry Palmer and the Avatar courses. Spreading damaging lies about an organisation that is striving to do such good in the world is not okay. Not sure how whomever it is that started this site sleeps well at night, knowing what they’re doing… I’ll be interested to see how long this post lasts on here…tick tick tick…

  338. Well, Bec T, seems you’re the one making unsubstantiated criticisms. You claim I’m telling “terrible lies” about Avatar. Kindly point them out.

    I categorically deny your accusation. I clearly acknowledged in my post that I knew nothing about Avatar until a friend brought them to my attention. I then set about doing some research via Google, and stated this also. How much more transparent can I get? The content in my post is presented in an obviously satirical manner, to be sure, and based on my research I have no respect for the Avatar sect or good ol’ Harry. But where are the “terrible lies”? Your charge has no basis unless you are prepared to clearly identify instances of my alleged lying.

    In fact, there are none. I faithfully passed on the findings of my research. It seems you are just another Avatar victim reacting oh-so-defensively to having your belief system challenged. If this were not the case, you would have responded rationally and dispassionately to my post, rather than resorting to emotion-charged accusation based on nothing but the offence you’ve evidently taken to my less-than-reverent treatment of your sect.

    As for your suspicions that your post won’t last long on the Comments thread, fear not. Firstly, as moderator, I could have simply deleted it unpublished if I’d chosen, so it’s hardly a matter of how long your post will last up here. It’s here through my decision. And that was an easy decision to make. FYI, I have not censored a single post on this now mammoth thread, whether for or against Avatar. This thread aside, it is my policy not to censor on this blog. The only exception is nuisance posters and spammers.

    So there you go – your post will stay up here as evidence of your gullibility and, I fervently hope, as a turn-off to people in crisis or vulnerable to false prophets. Maybe one day you’ll look back at your testimony in a less enfevered state and wonder how you could have fallen for this tosh. For your sake, I hope that’s sooner rather than later. Tick tick tick…


  339. Hey Bec T

    Glad to hear that your family relationships have improved as a result of doing Avatar. Sadly this is not always the case You only have to read the suffering of people on this thread that have lost loved ones to Avatar.

    Like Rolan I am curious as to what lies there are on this site about Harry. Do tell?

    Oh by the way, when your beliefs don’t line up with shared reality they are either a “primary not yet manifested” or delusional. In your case I’d suggest that although extremely passionate about Avatar, your beliefs fall into the delusional category as there is plenty of proof that people have experienced harm as a result of doing the Avatar Courses.

    Unfortunately 15 years of Psychotherapy prior to experiencing Avatar does not qualify you to make the assertion that “There is absolutely nothing harmful about the Avatar work, whatsoever.” Some may say you are probably a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic but I digress.

    As you will experience on the integrity course (like I did) when you pay to add that to your life experience that some Avatar Masters are in fact manipulating dishonest bastards. Avatar didn’t make them that way but it also hasn’t erased those tendencies even though they have done the integrity course.

    Sorry old girl but your posting really doesn’t do you, Harry, or Avatar any credit. In fact I’d say your posting proves my point not yours.

    May you be happy truly happy and well.

    Toodle Pip
    The Dr.

  340. I. too would like to know what are the lies you are referring to Bec? Speaking of lies I just re-read Rolansteins’ original post on this thread and there are a couple of things he forgot to mention, or may not be aware of – the first is regarding Harry’s claims to have come up with the Avatar course while in a float tank – this is obviously not true, as many of the exercises are derived from other pre-existing sources; and secondly Harry possibly never even spent any time in a float tank – if you read the Publisher’s Note and Disclaimer in the front of “Living Deliberately” (something probably very few people bother to read) you will see that “The characters and events described in the text of Living Deliberately are intended to entertain and teach rather than provide an exact factual history of people or events” … in other words – the events described may not have happened at all…

  341. My goodness! …………….:-)………………..it is so entertaining to observe the dance of so many egoic minds, enlightened souls who believe they know, or at least that is how their words come across to me.

    The real proof is in the pudding, and the pudding here is the assertions that are being launched on a subject that is very dear to me: How does consciousness work? Courses like the Avatar course have come a very long way to look under the hood and into the engine…while many of the assertions above are clearly uttered by folks who have never been near a car :-)…………..sounds aloof? Arrogant? Perhaps.

    Reading through some of thus thread brings up this statement: “No wonder people keep shooting each-other”…………….come on, guys, ever heard of tolerance, compassion, love?

    So how tolerant can I be, when reading posts that ramble on at great length to discredit a course, which I have found the most transformative experience in my life? Honestly, the Avatar materials are so rich, and the community is so colorful and inspired, that it boggles my mind how some of the contributions above come up with the judgments and slandering I read into their words.

    What the hell am I doing then here, putting in my 2-cents?
    A shout out to those who read my lines: Most of what you read in this forum has very little to do with Avatar, but is all about the boisterous voices of those who can’t resist but shout out like I just did LOL………………



  342. can’t help but add this P.S.: Many posts in this forum reek of egos who desperately want to assert themselves by arguing points and issues. Using flowery language, and often hide behind cynical humor that can’t fully disguise the utter ignorance and helplessness they may experience in their hearts. – Sure, I am not immune to all that……………or I wouldn’t be here, tooting my horn ;-)……………..it does ruffle my feathers to see something I cherish slandered, pulled through the dirt in ways that misses the point in ways so obvious. As a scholar and truth seeker, a human being valuing compassion and connection with others, this obviously is not the place here to look for that :-). Does anyone here me?

  343. SO, Peter, apart from asserting that the folk here are egotistical blowhards, arrogant, intolerant, loveless – and indeed, the types who contribute to shootings of other homosapiens (!!!) – you have nothing to add to the discussion. No points to take up, no logical argument, no additional relevant info about Avatar that casts into doubt or mitigates against the criticisms of the naysayers who seem to have so filled you with hurt, outrage and indignation?

    Shame you have your facts wrong about the knowledge levels of some of the contributors to this thread, who have intimate experience of Avatar and have come out the other side. Dr Strangelove, for example, is an ex-Master and VERY informed about Avatar – probably a lot more so than you. Perhaps you should open your mind to the possibility that you have something to learn from those who have gone before, rather than throwing a hissy fit out of defensiveness and slamming down the shutters on sensible two-way exchange. Yeah, it’s obvious you’ve gotten a lot out of Avatar.

    Cheers bub.

  344. Rolanstein, ah, you didn’t resist to jump in and share your judgments about me, who and what I am, what background I have with Avatar etc. etc. ……………obviously your words speak for themselves, and our “operating systems” are not quite running the same software.

    Nevertheless, perhaps with words more conducive to come through, a few additions: It is about the experience, rather than having an intellectual discussion. I am an Avatar Master, and have found the Avater materials instrumental on my path towards “more light”. So rather than going into my reaction to some of the posts I read, here a synopsis of my experience with the Avatar materials: To realize how my beliefs are creating the reality I am creating was a mind-blowing insight. Very powerful. Humbling too. Learned to assume various perspectives, and how that would affect the perceptions on which I based my sense of reality.

    So really, what brought me here on this page is a passion to investigate consciousness, how it all works, and that is what drew me to the Avatar materials. Yes, admittedly, some of the posts I read were rattling “my cage” a bit, as you noticed, and at the same time, offered me an opportunity to take a closer look at the image of being “caged in”. The Avatar tools are quite efffective in recognizing the “mental cages” we create, and from where we launch all those judgments, making all those points you are missing me make here. I am not here to make any points, the forum title alone hinted that this might not turn out to be my “sangha”. Why am I here? – As I said, some of what I read really irked me, and I gave into the temptation to come out and share what came up for me. Just to be clear, “what comes up for me” has nothing to do with any truth’s, any “facts” as you call them, as I don’t really know the facts. I am just a human being, fumbling along in life, with an intent to open my eyes, my ears, my heart, my mind, and make sense of the miraculous experiences I seem to create for myself. In that sense, thank you for giving me that opportunity, and may the force be with you :-)…………………


  345. Peter – I share your interest in consciousness – particularly in the state of consciousness of the “avatar master”, the “wizard” and any higher forms of consciousness such as that which Harry Palmer has attained, which gives him the ability to bestow the aforesaid titles on his graduates…

    It seems that in the consciousness of one so highly developed, who is able to “live deliberately” it is possible to erase whole chunks of one’s past life, and write an “autobiography” that omits certain unimportant and inconvenient “facts” and “truths” – and why not ? since one’s perception of past events is subjective why should one not be able to change them at will ?

    So long as you remember to put a disclaimer in small print at the front for those people that get hung up on “facts” and might dispute the “truth” of the events described …

  346. Oh please. The distinction between perception and “fact” is one of the fundamentals of NLP. It’s hardly a subtle understanding unique to enightened beings and Avatar Masters. So Keef, drop the patronising tone and resist the urge to have a dig at those who don’t share your belief in Harry and his Avatar tribe. I was actually impressed by your post initially, because unlike EVERY Avatar devotee who has responded to this thread, your tone was not defensive, hostile or emotionally charged and you seemed to be making a genuine enquiry and to be engaging in meaningful discourse – then came your parting sentence. Sigh…


  347. Keef: Thank you for your contribution, I hear your concern.

    Now that I am past my reaction to how I saw Avatar discussed on this site, let me be a bit more clear: While titles and labels are meaningless, i.e. they are just words to point, and are not representing the “Truth” which you might refer to above. So the first hurdle on any spiritual path in my book is to get past the words, the intellectual discussions, the arguments rooted in a paradigm of “right-and-wrong”, and recognize that “the map is not the territory”.

    So while we each might create our own unique territory based on the maps we choose to look and believe to represent the reality we prefer to experience…………..my “map” suggests this: As long as we identify with our personal selfs, call it “ego”, Avatar lingo talks about “identities”, our convictions about truth and reality is bound to be subjective in nature.

    For me, “The Avatar Course” isn’t about Harry Palmer, but about the tools they make available to those committed to a spiritual path. As tools go, they opened dimensions to me that impacted my life in such a powerful way, the the cost was more than justified. The packaging and the PR machine Avatar developed are designed to serve their noble goal of creating an enlightened planetary civilization. So I really don’t care if Harry Palmer did or did not spend all that time in a sensory deprivation tank to discover the source of consciousness.

    So it is not about getting on the soapbox here, and relieving myself of the emotional response s that welled up when reading some of the posts in this forum……….which is exactly what I did in my initial post. And that gives me an opportunity to observe what my words trigger: “The world is a reflection of me” …….one of the presuppositions I first heard in my first Avatar Course in the 90’s.

    Rolanstein, with all due respect to his Arse ;-)………..was out quickly to assert that I have nothing to add to this discussion. A review of what I posted yesterday, plus reading a few more of the posts above, suggest that my comments were a knee-jerk reaction, and quite generalized at that. – You, keef, shared for instance how you associated with Avatar with Harry and from there engaged in reactions to scientology. This is an interesting phenomenon on the internet: You pick up a believe that seems attractive or convincing to you, hop on google and bingo, there are dozens, hundreds and sometimes more search results popping up, all giving you ammunition to support your belief to be true, creating the reality tunnels most of us live in. Perhaps the biggest and most powerful tunnels are those major belief systems supported by major ideologies, such as Christianity, Islam, Capitalism, Communism, and a bunch of other “isms” out there. I can’t talk about scientology, as I have close to zero real exposure, however, I do form a reaction of those sinking their teeth into the bone of pointing out that Harry came from scientology. So picking apart how Harry came up with the materials is one thing, and then there is the other: What do the Avatar tools do for those who apply them in their daily lives?

    So, while my utterings here don’t claim to be “true” or “real”, not even “accurate” or “based on expertise”, they hopefully bring something to this forum that provides an additional perspective. The human mind and ego is desperately addicted to preserving itself, and the Avatar Course offers an opportunity to step beyond the prison of the mind, to discover a realm of Being, our true Self, which is not a separate entity, but part of all there is out there and in here.

    My 2-cents worth ;-)…………


  348. rolenstein: Yes, the Avatar course isn’t the mother of all invention, sensory deprivation tank, psychedelics or lifetimes in monestaries ;-)…………….and yet, as I wanted to share, it is a tool-set that I have found to contain very powerful and effective tools. Right after immersing myself in those tools I came across NLP, at NLPU in Santa Cruz, where Judith de Lozier and Robert Dilts held annual trainings over the summer months on the UCSC Campus. And boy, yes, many elements of NLP translated straight across to Avatar. – After years of fascination and some titles……….and yes, I don’t think those matter much, beyond indicating I was there and paid the money ;-)…………I came across various other systems that seemed to offer tools and answers I was looking for on my path to happiness and Self Realization. Nowadays, I am mostly drawn to advaita and neo-advaita, rooted in Hinduism, and in my experience, the most direct “pointers” to what I consider essential: Recognize the limitation of the mind, and the identification with the ego, the “persona” if you will, and don’t consider the prison that this puts you in as the world at large. Stepping outside the cage, opens up perspectives and realizations so vast, that the ego-games we love so much dissolve in the light of the Divine.
    With that said, while my first impression in this forum was a bucket of cold water over my head ;-)……………..I know feel grateful that I was able to connect to two folks in here, learn something about their views and their style of sharing, and for having had the opportunity to express something that in its own way is able to contribute to the conversation.

    May the force be with all of you.


  349. Rolanstein – sorry, i think you misunderstood my last post – I was being a little satirical, or perhaps a little cynical…

    Harry’s description of some the events he claims to have experienced (or does he?) glosses over the years he spent running a scientology centre in New York state, during which time he attained a high level within that heirarchy, but was eventually kicked out and sued by the scientology church for pocketing more than his share of the dosh …

    … and it fails to mention that he pretty much got run out of town by the people there that he was persuading to partake in the endless courses you have to do in scientiology, at great cost to their personal lives and financial state … that is, at least, he left the town and a lot of angry people behind and moved to a different state …

    My belief regarding Harry is that “a leopard doesn’t change it’s spots” – he has conveniently erased actual events from his past from the book that appears on the surface to be an autobiography – that is, at least, it is written in the style of an autobiograhy … the avatar master that I know believes the events described in the book really did happen … but then he hadn’t read the disclaimer in small print at the bottom of a page in the front of the book …

    And having read that disclaimer he managed to blur the distinction between perception, facts and truth in true avatar style…

    Although I may sound a little cynical, and my last post was an attempt at satire, I am serious in what I say – I believe Harry is a con man, making money and gaining a status from the people he is ripping off – sure some of the “tools” he is selling might work quite well – after all he got them from various other sources of spiritual or psychological growth – most of which don’t charge anything like as much for their services, but I think Harry is just using people, taking advantage of their goodwill – promising “enlightenment” for a fee – sorry, i don’t buy it …

  350. Thanks for the clarification, keef! You’re quite right – I did misunderstand the intent of your post, and didn’t pick up on the satire. I hate that when it happens to me. Sorry!


  351. I think Rolan may have inadvertently set a world record for the longest running blog post of all time. Perhaps it is because the topic enables the commenters to play the “I am right you are wrong game endlessly.

    I read with amusement and also a fair amount of sadness at the recent remarks of Peter. He is typical of the Avatar convert who happens upon this thread and then explodes into some whacky outrage at the criticism of Harry and his box set of enlightenment techniques.

    What strikes me as odd is the consistent way these people leap into an attack on Rolan and also the contributors to this topic. Invariably they seem to be venomous rather than compassionate, judgemental rather than accepting, closed rather than open minded and I could go on.

    What I find strange is that when I was a practising Avatar Master there was never any encouragement to behave the way these people do and yet the dialogue on this thread with Avatar devotees is littered with attacks and claims of lies and fraud.

    Without wanting to defend Avatar or its followers in any way I would have to say that the nasty nut job behaviour on this thread is not actually a fair representation of Avatar course attendees. Many of them are nice people looking for some assistance to improve their lives and some have found Avatar as a useful tool to do this.

    I think perhaps there are some parallels with LandMark forum attendees. Some attend the training find some benefit and move on. Others (a very small number of the total) get swept up in the view that “I have benefited from this so now I need to ram it down the throat of everyone I know.” Those who have perhaps addictive personalities or some underlying crusader identity then commit to the proselytising of all others.

    What I also find irksome is the assertion that anyone who has a slightly negative view of Avatar is seen by the whack jobs as someone who has already decided that Harry or Avatar is wrong or bad and therefore will only find stuff to reinforce that their belief is correct. It’s a convenient white wash that denies the ability of any individual to make a decision based on a variety of feedback.

    When I was younger I used to work with a Jehovah’s witness who regularly went door knocking with his young children. I asked him how his children handled the often negative reactions from residents and having the door slammed shut in their faces. He said to me “That’s easy. I tell my kids that we have the truth and that one of the ways that we know that we have the truth is that people will often react negatively and reject the truth when confronted with it.” Imagine that, every door slammed shut proves that your belief is the right one.

    Perhaps Peter and many of the other Avatar defenders have the same view. Every criticism of Avatar or Harry is proof that they are right.

    Here is how to set up a self protecting belief system:

    1. Create the belief “I am right” without question (or in the case of an Avatar Master “Harry is right.”)

    2. Your rightness will be proved to be true every time somebody offers you some evidence that suggests you might be wrong. Any uncomplimentary evidence will not be real evidence it will be a pack of lies.

    3. Someone else who agrees with your belief is also proof that it is the correct belief to hold.

    4. Someone who doesn’t believe you are right is only this way because they are wrong and have decided that they only want to find evidence for the mistaken belief that you are wrong.

    5. If at any stage you find yourself doubting that you are right this is a sign that people are lying to you and trying to fill your head with evil. People will only lie to you if you are right, which of course you are, so hold strong to your original belief and refuse to inspect any possible evidence to the contrary.

    6. Powerful belief systems have a symbol that people can recognise (like a Swastika) that identify people who believe that same things you do. In modern times we call this symbol a logo or a Trademark. Use this symbol to identify people you should hang out with and make a symbol for people who are dangerous to associate with (perhaps a gold star). No offence intended to Jewish people in this metaphor!

    The most stubborn and rock solid beliefs I have come across are the ones where I refuse to occupy the opposite point of view.

    If Harry is right then he should have no problem at all with his followers exploring all possible viewpoints regarding him including the ones about him that are less than complimentary. After all they are all just beliefs right? In case you haven’t got it yet Avatar followers, not being allowed to explore the possibility of Harry and his intentions being less than spotless isn’t a reflection on your integrity, it’s a reflection on his.

    Toodle Pip
    The Dr

  352. Toodle Pip: Not an “Avatar Defender” here, despite being lumped into that category. Was more in the role of reacting to forum obsessed around the notion of “right-and-wrong”, “deception”, “lying”…………….and a bunch of other judgments and assessment of Avatar, Harry, and other posters who didn’t line up behind the “party line”.

    My intent was to stay with myself, my experience, and own my beliefs, including the presupposition that often what I see in others comes from a source within myself. Reading your post I conclude that I wasn’t getting through to make clear where I come from.

    And yes, at the outset, I got triggered by a (perveived) tone of voice that brought up anger, dismay and frustration. That transformed into the realization, that we all create our own ways to be in this world, and make our own choices as to what we consider real.

    Perhaps the most outstanding element is the ongoing division into “right-and-wrong”. Having grown up in that milieu, I am quite sensitized to it, and I don’t see anything further to be gained. That doesn’t stop me sometimes getting sucked into a thread of this sort, and the learning is rich. That I am grateful for. I clearly sense that energy inside that wants to assert itself, defend when I feel attacked, and stand up for a cause in which I have adopted a conviction in. This is currently most apparent in the presidential election season in the U.S., where I feel more opinionated than I would prefer. So be it, may this forum have at least shown me once again the difference between judging and projecting onto others what really is simply created within myself.

    To go over a number of recent posts again, it is rather impressive to look for the language pattern, and the ever so present “I-am-right-and-you-are-wrong-and-he-is-a-lier-and-I-just-call-a-spade-a-spade”……….. ;-)……………..

    For clarification: I hear loud and clear that many posting here *know* with certainty what they are talking about, and they want to make sure their opinion is heard and asserted. I was tempted to play the “tit-for-tat”, and quickly realized that I was barking up the wrong tree in the wrong orchard ;-)…………..

    “Beyond our ideas of right-doing and wrong-doing,
    there is a field. I’ll meet you there.
    When the soul lies down in that grass,
    the world is too full to talk about.
    Ideas, language, even the phrase ‘each other’
    doesn’t make sense any more.” ― Rumi

    In the end, it is perfect as it is, and if I can resist the temptation to stick around: Best wishes to you all :-).


  353. Peter,
    In an earlier comment you state… For me, “The Avatar Course” isn’t about Harry Palmer, but about the tools they make available to those committed to a spiritual path.”

    I find this at odds with my experience as an Avatar Master. Here’s why.

    Harry is seen as the sole creator of the Avatar Materials. People who suggest modifications or improvements to Harry’s tools are quickly put in their place by Avra or one of the trainers. It is actually seen as an issue of someone with an ego problem and some integrity work is required.

    Harry’s personally owned corporation is the owner of the materials. He only makes them available to people who pay him handsomely for the privilege. Stars Edge decide if you are eligible for a license to deliver his materials and the license can be revoked at any time at their sole discretion. License breaches are treated seriously with legal action threatened and sometimes taken.

    The spiritual path he prescribes is entirely his creation and totally under his control and is paid for under a commercial arrangement each step of the way.

    In short the Avatar Tools aren’t available to anyone committed to a spiritual path without the exchange of cash.

    What other spiritual path allows you to purchase enlightenment and keeps it secret from all that can’t afford to pay for it?

    Harry’s tools and processes have as much to do with enlightenment as a Tony Robbins Course or a LandMark Course.

    So I’m sorry dear boy I don’t buy your assertion, not one little bit. If Avatar was about the tools and not about Harry they would be published as a spiritual text available to all seekers and not a commercial text only available for purchase.

    People who visit this posting on Rolan’s blog tend to fall into the following categories:

    1) People who are looking for information on Avatar because they are associated with someone who is into it and they have some genuine concerns and want to find out more as the Avatar materials by their nature are kept secret.

    2) People who have first hand experience of Avatar and have come out the other side with useful info that will enable others to make a more informed choice about their involvement or not with Avatar and The Stars Edge Corporation. Me for example.

    3) Avatar defenders who most often have done the Masters Course. You for example.

    4) The occasional fruit loop whose comments are usually so wacky and unintelligible that one has to write them off after a bit of a chuckle.

    The reason I bother to while away my summer evenings responding to the posts on this blog is not because I want to play the right and wrong game but because I actually care about the impact that being involved with Avatar has on peoples lives.

    Right time for a Brandy.

    Toodle Pip
    The Dr.

    Toodle Pip is a gesture of farewell not my name.

  354. not sure what your name is, I guess Dr. Strangelove: Fair enough. I hear you loud and clear. One of my most profound and lasting impression during my first Avatar Course was the open space created by the leaders, inviting sharing from the heart. They made an effort to hold a space of protection from the typical group dynamics, where everybody jumped in and would share their *reaction* to what others experience, believe and express, rather than sharing what *they* experience without having to put down or invalidate the experience of others.

    Your concern about money and control, which you describe, is familiar. I had them, and so lots of others have them. – A big shift happened for me when I realized that it wasn’t about Harry, Avatar, the price they put on their product, or the packaging they use to sell their product. It was all very clear to me, what the conditions, requirements and protocols were, to successfully get and apply what was offered for purchase. I chose to purchase, to honor the expertise, cost, dedication and commitment that made the courses I was on possible. In hindsight, the experiences that ensued were great, worth every penny paid and every effort exerted on behalf of those it took to make it happen. A fair deal, one I chose and one I am happy about.

    Everybody is free to make what they choose out of the course. As you might agree, we are free to choose our beliefs, and those filters then attract a corresponding experience.

    The kicker for me is to finally learn that my choices, beliefs and experiences do not need to match yours or anyone else’s. Harry has an ego, just like most of us. I have the choice to purchase the course, or to spend my money elsewhere. In my case, doing the Avatar course was one of the best purchases I made. It is difficult to put a price tag on a process, that when followed as prescribed, offers the occurrence of a shift from the standpoint of a “victim” to that of a “victor”, or as you remember, in Avatar they call it the opportunity to recover your source being. That is what the course promises to do, and in many cases, that is what the course delivers, the best it can, as they don’t break kneecaps or apply voodoo brainwashing techniques. Ah, you or a few folks on this will go: “Stop right there, buddy……………they did this or that to me”………………obviously demonstrating that only a victim perspective would choose to look at the process that way. So the protocols, and the strict adherence to them, is part of the strength of the course, as it increases the chances of a “victim” based individual being freed to recover their sources being. For that to happen, there are a few elements that need to fall into place, and the Avatar Course is intending to facilitate that the best way they can.

    I imagine that your mind, and the mind of all those who have decided that Avatar is either evil, or otherwise worth tearing down, discrediting or publicly shaming………..with the noble intent to protect the innocent from being exploited and brainwashed, with the perpetrators being Harry and his hordes of disciples and co-conspirators, those he was able to lure and subjugate into his web of deception and lies (LOL, yes, I am cynical, you are damn right!)…………..but I say this with a smile on my face, as it is perfectly clear to me that what I am expressing is pure fiction, and I am the author. I am the script writer, the movie director, the audience, and yes, even the movie theater where the movie is shown. It is all me :-)………………and that my friend(s) (probably not ;-)..)……..is what was first illuminated during the Avatar course!

    Of course it is the prerogative of you, and any other poster, to come out here and put in their 2-cents worth, or however much they want to invest in making their voice heard.

    In closing, perhaps the most daunting posts are those who seem to be motivated by this ever so noble gesture of protecting the innocent public to fall into the net of the vilains, the Avatars that are rooming the world in search of victims, like vampires ready to suck the blood (cash) out of them…………….cynicism? Yup, right again…………..and so delighted that you are not in the “right-and-wrong” game. This entire thread is ooooooooooooozing of “right-and-wrong” energy, mostly of those going on the soapbox and letting the world know how wrong Avatar is. To those I say: “Please, do not take the course, as you might be disappointed” LOL……………with a bit of humor though, it all goes down as the ongoing process of expanding consciousness, whatever path we choose, and whether we pay for the tools or prefer to take them and walk out the door, justified by all sorts of arguments why they don’t need to be purchased and should be given away for free…………

    And you know what? …………..it’s all good, it is exactly as it should be, mirrors being handed out so that we may see our reflection, and yet experience another choice how we choose to handle that privilege.

    It’s been fun, thanks for those who felt compelled to follow along.


  355. Hate to say it Peter, but you do sound awfully like an “Avatar defender” – for example you wrote”

    “Everybody is free to make what they choose out of the course. As you might agree, we are free to choose our beliefs, and those filters then attract a corresponding experience”

    That was a piece of pure “Avatarspeak” as was much of your writing …

    There is a clever little escape clause in there for Harry – if you are happy with the results of the course, that is because – even though it is “not about Harry” it is Harry that developed the course (in his water tank, or maybe not?) and Harry that runs Star’s Edge Inc., – without Harry there would be no Avatar … so Harry is central to the whole thing, and gosh, he is so humble about it isn’t he, just an ordinary guy that wears jeans and a tee shirt when we all know he could easily afford a designer label suit …

    but I digress … the escape clause is that if you aren’t happy with the results then it’s your choice, choosing to be a victim or whatever you may call it – you “attracted a corresponding experience” and so your experience is something you chose, and as you say, those of us who point out the lies and deception are just choosing that experience… how convenient … otherwise known as “blame the victim” and “shoot the messenger” makes me wonder what the Avatar attitude to rape is ???

    So sorry, but I do believe you have been brainwashed – not by voodoo though – the whole purpose of the avatar course is to push through your boundaries, your defenses, or your conditioning – and induce in you a particular state of mind – one in which there is a great sense of release and freedom, but also a particularly open and vulnerable state…. a great opportunity to install a few “worms” should anyone wish to do so…

  356. Keef, if you hate to say it, why do you? – I hear you, and your insistence of calling me an “avatar defender”.

    Sure, what brought me onto this forum was a reaction to some of the posts I read, likely of folks whose experience of Avatar is limited to intellectual analysis based on hearsay and articles that make an effort to punch holes into the organization and the people running it, or the course itself. So for me, this really isn’t about Avatar, it is about you and me in this case: Our filters, beliefs, perspectives, values, choices and what we make with all those fragments.

    As for me using Avatar lingo, sure, as I thought that folks who have at least some exposure to the material, which is what I am really after, the Avatar terminology is as good as any, if not better. In fact it was that use of language, the clarity and the insistence on specific definitions of terms that impressed me when I was actively studying and applying (attempting to) the material in my life. Later, when drawn more and more towards other schools of thought, I could see the cross references and similarities. This is especially true with NLP, which followed my involvement with Avatar in the late 90’s. Nowadays, it is more the pointing of advaita masters and teachers that seem to satisfy my need for guidance as I go deeper and wider in my process of realizing my true Self. So really, in case you wonder, for me my sharing here is more about how to learn to be more honest, more transparent, more real and in a sense more “realistic” when I describe, judge, label pretend to know phenomena that I have barely scratched the surface on. Avatar for example, even though I paid the money, showed up for the courses, did the exercises (some of them)……..and if I had to put it in numbers, perhaps I got 50% out of the treasure offered and left the other 50% on the table.
    However, having for the first time in my life really grasped what a *belief* is, and how it affects my life, I have received a value that far exceeded what I paid.

    Entering a forum titled “Avatar my Arse”, gives an idea of how one would be labeled if one took one or the other side of the argument. What I keep discovering though is that the game of arguing, which is taught in schools even, isn’t really what I find useful. And since we are talking about Avatar, well knowing that I provide you with further evidence for your belief, that I am an “Avatar Defender”, for whatever value you get out of that assertion…………….The Course offered me a glimpse into a world, where it wasn’t about “you-or-me” or “right-or-wrong” or “true-or-false”. It taught me to widen back (another Avatar slang term ;-)…) and gain a broader and deeper perspective, which I welcomed then and welcome today, whether Harry wears Jeans or a suit. He actually has been wearing suits lately, last time I checked ;-)………..

    And just because it isn’t about Harry for me, there wasn’t a need for me to go into my resistance and struggle about the “cult-about-about-Harry”, and how the disciples flock to the Master etc. etc. ……………..it has not been part of my experience. However, I did learn over the years, that all those assertions and judgments are mostly my need to assert a position, the position of my ego which for many presents a cage or box they remain in for a lifetime.

    The quarrel about money, i.e. the entire business aspect of Avatar………for me is like any business: Are we questioning how the owner of a business lives his life, dresses, what car he drives? Remember Osho, and how folks got wild about his Roll’s Royces?

    This leads me to my last point: The white worms and the black worms. My take, based on my history and how I was raised and educated, hundreds of “worms” were slipped into my brain………or, by now you know that I have decided that “they” didn’t do it “to me”…….but rather I chose to believe what I was told and taught, which I call “worms” (beliefs). It is like the air we breathe: They are abundant, some of it pure, some of it polluted. Or the food we eat, some nutritious, some junk. And it matters. So my experience was that Avatar was feeding me pure air, giving me nutritious food, and there wasn’t any evidence for me to belief otherwise. However, if one is a hammer, all you see is nails. And in this forum, from what I have read, the “hammer” is Harry’s person and how he lures people into traps where he separates them from their money, brainwashes them, plants white worms and then tries to abuse them for the creation of an enlightened planetary civilization. Sure, there are many variations and details to that tune, and those who like the music, will hum along as long as the band plays.



  357. Peter – “avatar defender” was a phrase someone else used, and you objected to being lumped into that category – I “hate to say it” because i don’t like to label people, but the simple reality is that you are defending avatar, is that not so?

    However, your defense of avatar seems to keep avoiding the central issue that I have brought up – namely that Harry ran a mission of the Church of Scientology in Elmira. New York for 15 years, that he is alleged to have ripped people off there, and that his book “Living Deliberately” is presented as autobiography, but completely glosses over this period of his life.

    You seem to write off this information as being ” intellectual analysis based on hearsay etc…” yet you say that honesty and transparency is important to you. If that is true I suggest you have a good look at this link and associated pages and decide for yourself who is being deceptive here http://jeta.home.xs4all.nl/avatar/avatar-scientology-roots.html

  358. Keef, with as much clarity as I am capable off this Sunday morning: After reading some posts on this thread I felt compelled to show another aspect of Avatar, sharing what my experiences with Avatar was and still is today. Whoever still reads along can form their own opinion, apply their own perceptual filters and create the judgments they see fit based on the information they have sought out to gather and the sources they have chosen to listen to and believe.

    Avatar isn’t about Harry or his past for me, it is about the value I derived from taking the course. Those that have an ax to grind with Harry are on their own as far as my attention is concerned. I live in the present, and I go by my direct experience with people, and with organizations if I am involved with them. There is absolutely nothing in my experience with Star’s Edge that prompts me to go online and try to rally support for the grouches I hold: I don’t have any, but I feel utmost gratitude and appreciation for all those serving the planet by offering their energy to the stated goals and causes of the Avatar Course. I have no reason to discredit Harry and buy into the campaigns you reference to, where folks are attempting to smear an individual, who has been tirelessly building a global network that provides teachings and services I have utmost respect for, and have personally experienced as something of the most transformative power. To me it is obvious why I don’t feel any inclination, interest or attraction to pursue the “research” you are promoting, there is *nothing* there for me to gain.

    Obviously my voice would be a minority in a form with the title “Avatar-my-arse”. The title alon e is a clear expression of the type of objectivity, bias and dedication to true inquiry that is prevalent. If you are not sure what I mean, just skip above and read some of the posts here.

    I got hooked because just recently I have been pulling out my course material, and discovered what a treasure chest it is for someone that wants to learn how consciousness works. This blog also is an expression of how the human operates in different individuals and at the end of the day, really inside ourselves!

    In closing, for full disclosure: The biggest challenge thus far in my experience with Avatar has been the recruiting practices for the wizards course: After being approached on a regular basis around the recruiting period for wizards, I would nibble on the offer but typically come up with all sorts of excuses why I wasn’t signing up after all. A few years ago, after engaging in a deep and very effective wizards preparation process, and I was closer than ever to making arrangements to go to take the course, when what I label as “a closer” was brought in to “bust” my final resistance(s). This prompted me to stonewall and harden up, and giving me a compelling reason to decide against going. – Now, even though I am tempted to single out that person and project all my feelings of dismay and anger about the style I felt coming my way, in the end, I choose to own my reaction for what it was: My creation. Mentioning this gives me an opportunity, to examine how I have carried along this sense of being disgruntled as an argument to keep the Avatar materials in the closet.

    In closing: As with any organization, the “doctrin” and the “organization” can be viewed as separate, or in this case, the personality of the founder and CEO, is yet another facet of what has been discussed here as “avatar-my-arse”. Perhaps we have left out looking at the “arse” part? LOL – with that said, a heartfult THANK YOU to you, the list administrator/host, the Dr., and all those who felt compelled to read along…………..

    so long 🙂


  359. So Peter, to summarise:

    1. You are saying that you believe the allegations made in the link i sent are false – as you put it – “folks attempting to smear an individual”

    2. You are saying that you have not read these allegations, and have no interest in doing so because you have had a such a good experience with avatar that it makes it irrelevant to you, even they are true

    3. You are saying that even if it what is said about Harry is true, it doesn’t really matter anyway because “the doctrine and the organisation (are) separate”

    Please correct me if I have got that wrong

  360. ~~~~~~~~~~~~1. You are saying that you believe the allegations made in the link i sent are false – as you put it – “folks attempting to smear an individual”~~~~~~~~~~~

    It is not my place to judge your allegations. They are not relevant to me in the discussion of the value of the Avatar Course.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~2. You are saying that you have not read these allegations, and have no interest in doing so because you have had a such a good experience with avatar that it makes it irrelevant to you, even they are true~~~~~~~~~~~~

    correct, I have read them before and heard about them, but based on my experience with Avatar they didn’t seem relevant, and still don’t.

    ~~~~~~~~~~3. You are saying that even if it what is said about Harry is true, it doesn’t really matter anyway because “the doctrine and the organisation (are) separate”~~~~~~~~

    yes, and I’ll take it a step further: What really matter is the choice *I* make, the experience *I* have and what my interactions are like when dealing with the organization. This is partly because one of my beliefs is that most of what I “see” out there is a reflection of me.

    I appreciate your effort to hear me and this about all I want to say about this. My mission is accomplished.


  361. Thanks Peter, it’s good to get clear about these things …

    If I was to liken Harry to a dodgy used car salesman, it seems to me that you would be like someone saying “I don’t care if he sold lemons to some people in another town, I’m happy with the cars he sold me, so it’s not my problem, I don’t want to know about it and I don’t care about those people, as it was their choice to buy those cars from him”

    Well I guess that is your choice, and I can understand that if you believe that what you see out there is a reflection of you, then you might not want to look, for fear of seeing your own “inner” dodgy used car salesman ..?

    If that’s how things are gonna be in the “Enlightened Planetary Civilisation” you can count me out, thanks…

  362. Hi Keef
    It’s a bit scary but Peter’s posts could have easily been written by me before I left the ranks of practising Avatar Masters.

    There is an interesting phenomenon that can be observed where people who have successfully completed the Avatar Course and the Masters Course appear to have an aligned view of how to ignore any evidence that would suggest that Harry is not some wonderful guru who has gifted us these amazing tools to create better lives and a better world.

    I fully expect the active Masters within the Stars Edge Network to not be willing to examine any criticisms levelled at Harry. What blows my mind is that people like Peter who have had some contact in the past with Avatar also seem to hold the view that “I have had a great experience so I am not really interested in hearing any negative stuff as that is just a belief you hold that will find the evidence it needs to prove it true.”

    Trying to have a rational discourse with someone who doesn’t need for things to be rational is frankly a waste of time as they wont change their view. I once had a fellow Master tell me that they could discover that Harry was a total fraud and it wouldn’t matter to them as they have personally got so much out of the materials. How scary is that? It reminds me of the Borg on Star Trek. Harry is a Sci Fi fan, maybe that is where he got the idea from.

    What you have to agree with is that the tools are indeed powerful for managing one’s beliefs regardless of how delusional those beliefs may be. Peter and other Avatar Masters who have visited Rolan’s blog are testament to that.

    Toodle Pip
    The Dr.

  363. What is this really all about?

    Rolan … you are annoyed at something… I assume and the advocates for Avatar are needing something to make them feel stable and give them direction. Harry P is probably into makiong money and it’s probably working based on the content of this thread (which I note, has been running for some time now, well done).
    I know a couple of individuals that have or are wizards, they seemed a little odd I guess. In fact I suspect they wrote in the thread, but could not confirm that.

    Individuals will push onto others their own needs when they feel it is something they have difficulty obtaining within their own lives/mind, etc… I see it all the time in my line of work. I view this as a bit weak to tell the truth and have to agree with Rolan for the most part, because it’s wrong to profit through bullsh#t, and thats what it is really, except for tyhose who need it, ie, those that do it, take part in it. I’m sure Tom Cruize thinks it’s amazing, but I dont… why because I don’t need it, like Roland , except he needs to fight it, why I don’t know.

    The profit making is not as benign as the content of the course.
    The content to me is in line with NLP and Landmark etc… very “new age” and helpful to some. What we find easy to foget is that its a business, it’s designed to make money. Thats all. The fact that some find benefit is irrelevant to Harry, he’s making money. If it had no benefit at all, but it still made $$$ the individuals involed in the profit wouldn’t change a thing.

    You can actually get all this type of thing for free, it’s that simple…

    Richard LW

  364. Warning to anyone reading this persons post, be very circumspect about the views put forward and read some more from other accredited sources. In a word, this writer is full of BULL.

    You know, I read a few of your lines, then started to see the missrepresentaion and the basic lies in your article.

    Looks more like you just want to people to read your tripe to satisfy your own agenda of dissing others.

    In this case there are so many incorrect and inaccurate statements in your test that I switched off. Liar is a word that springs to mind.

  365. Goodness, Dan, you’re an angry little Vegemite! What’s up your nose, exactly? You’re ready and willing to fling accusations around, but short on supporting evidence. What’s the basis for your “lying” charge, for example?

    And what’s the “test” you refer to?

    Or is your motivation in posting merely to let off steam and throw mud around?

  366. I’ve decided to close this gargantuan thread. The only posts I’ve been receiving in recent months are silly derisive name-calling missives directed at me from Avatar devotees. I’m sick of having to trash this aggro personally-directed stuff, which doesn’t say much for the senders, and adds nothing to the long discussion on the thread from those for and against Avatar. So, time to call it a day.

    Cheers all, and thanks for your many contributions over years.

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